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Last Hoorah? (been here before)
19-11-2004, 10:15 PM
Post: #1
Last Hoorah? (been here before)

I know we've been here before - but it looks like foxhunting has finally got the boot.

Why am I posting? Today's 'Times' has it as front page news. The gist of the item is : in six months foxhunting will be a CRIME!!!! (boo) - something that all classes (YEAH RIGHT) have enjoyed for hundreds of years is being CRIMINALISED by this govt!!!

Well - hang on a mo. If a mob chased a cat through the streets then tore it apart for sport that would rightly be a criminal offence - hmm? So by the same token doing the same to a fox should also be an offence. Yes?

Or is there a difference?

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19-11-2004, 11:42 PM
Post: #2
Last Hoorah? (been here before)
I don't go sending dogs out to shred foxes to bits.

But I do have two cats who have been out and shredded birds/mice/insects to bits in their time.

Am I thus a very bad person?

Also, given that Labour MPs have been enticed to vote for war in iraq, tuition fees, foundation hospitals etc. in return for the present ban-hunting bill, can we now reasonably conclude that foxes are waaaaaay more important than iraqis, patients and students?
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19-11-2004, 11:57 PM
Post: #3
Last Hoorah? (been here before)
I think the courts will have the last say.
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20-11-2004, 08:57 AM
Post: #4
Last Hoorah? (been here before)
Lucy Wrote:I don't go sending dogs out to shred foxes to bits.

But I do have two cats who have been out and shredded birds/mice/insects to bits in their time.

Am I thus a very bad person?

Also, given that Labour MPs have been enticed to vote for war in iraq, tuition fees, foundation hospitals etc. in return for the present ban-hunting bill, can we now reasonably conclude that foxes are waaaaaay more important than iraqis, patients and students?

May I respond?

I think that re your first point, there is a difference between one animal killing another, and a human killing or organising the killing of another human, or animal. In the first case, your cat killing a mouse, the cat is behaving instinctively and can't choose not to behave the way it does (eg on ethical grounds). Unlike humans who can. And I see a difference between Lucy-watching-pussy-dissect-a-mouse and Lucy-on-a-horse-chasing-a-fox.

On the second point, I'd say that just because there are other more important things going on in the world it doesn't mean you have to overlook the lesser things.

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20-11-2004, 01:01 PM
Post: #5
Last Hoorah? (been here before)
I am glad this has been brought up as a debate, I think everyone knows my views on this. I think what I will find interesting is the actions of both sides from February onwards.

I honestly did not think it would come to this - so quickly, I suppose with Labour this would have been inevitable. But IMO there are far more emotive issues this government could have tackled rather than hunting.

I could weep for livelihoods that will be wiped out come February, I could weep anyway - this countryside struggles as it is - but when an enourmous chunk of the rural economy is now outlawed, because of the ban - then it is just tragic.

I was always sort of ambivelant about hunting, I was happy for it to take place, because my support was for the jobs, the economy, the way of life, tradition, the sensible and most cost effective way to cull vermin. I do not hunt myself, but my family have, most of my friends do, likewise most of my firends are farmers and landowners who rely on the hunt to keep a track of the foxes killing thier livelihoods, and my chickens too boot!!

The freedom of choice has been taken away from the countryside now - and yes I am angry about it.

Having said all that - I really want to see how on earth hunting is to be policed??? It is a near on impossible situation for the police. How will they know that a hunt is taking place, how are they going to distinguish who is hunting and who is out for an afternoon's hack??

What would they do if a junior hunt took place and all the children were under the age of criminal responsibility?

What effect will the landowners/farmers actions have upon the economy?? Where will all the poo go??

How much are you prepared to pay for your veg, your meat, your flour, your bread, cooking oil??

I just predict unrest and an interesting situation arising in a couple of months time.

And then there is talk of banning shooting and fishing?? Same thing really isn't it?? Killing animals for sport?
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20-11-2004, 03:14 PM (This post was last modified: 20-11-2004 03:29 PM by survivorfan.)
Post: #6
Last Hoorah? (been here before)
I think it all boils down to whether or not fox hunting is cruel in terms of do we think the animal suffers unnecessarily. In my opinion it is, and looked at that way, arguments such as loss of jobs, freedom of choice etc sort of become beside the point.

As far as should other sports be outlawed, I think it is a case of where do you draw the line, I don't know what the answer is but I think fishing and shooting game are just about OK, seeing that the animal is despatched quickly and is eaten afterwards.

However I don't like any kind of hunting that is done just for sport, even if culling is given as a reason. When we stayed in Vermont the locals went bear hunting and I thought that was awful. They said it had to be done to cull the bears but really they were doing it for fun.

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20-11-2004, 04:20 PM
Post: #7
Last Hoorah? (been here before)
I've got mixed feelings about hunting.

I tend to like traditional activities to remain untouched, and there is something unique and spectacular about seeing a hunt gathering. However, on principle I agree with SF. I haven't seen the end results of a fox hunt. I haven't seen what happens when the dogs catch up with the fox. I'm sure it is over fairly quickly, but I would like to ask Flip whether she's been an observer of this and what her impressions are if she has.

The fact remains that fox hunting is the culling of vermin for sport, which I take objection to. BTW - if the ban is on hunting with dogs, does that include drag hunting?

I'm sure people had the same debate over badger baiting, but that's been outlawed because it is cruel and unnecessary and I don't think anyone would support it now. I think ten years down the line, the vast majority of people will look at fox hunting in the same way.
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20-11-2004, 04:44 PM
Post: #8
Last Hoorah? (been here before)
I'm also glad it's happened at last. The same arguments about jobs etc were trotted out prior to the banning of hand guns too, but the gunsmiths found other occupations and I'm sure the keeper of the hounds/master of the hunt will too.

Flip Wrote:most of my firends are farmers and landowners who rely on the hunt to keep a track of the foxes killing thier livelihoods, and my chickens too boot!!
With respect Flippy, Mr F had to shoot a fox on your land last week, and fox hunting is currently legal, which just goes to show how useful hunting actually is as a form of pest control.

Our local police have vowed to enforce the ban, they say that it will be easy enough to do. Let's face it, a hunt complete with a pack of hounds is not hard to spot.
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20-11-2004, 05:05 PM
Post: #9
Last Hoorah? (been here before)
im a very much live and let live person, i like people for who they are not what they are, but this hunting ban appears to me to be something that the "right on, politically correct" labour party are banning because they think it will win votes from the "working classes" - which is the majority of the country nowadays, the likes of me and you..............foxhunting has its roots in the "upper classes", therefore, it is my opinion that the people who take part will not be labour voters, therefore the labour party will not loose too many votes from passing the rule......but it could be the cybicak old witch in me that make me think like that!

its a darn shame that the muppets that run the country dont put as much time and effort into listening to the important things that people want like making things better for the NHS, Education, Crime reduction, affordable housing etc etc

i think foxhunting is barbaric, just like bull fighting in Spain, although i DO understand that foxes are vermin, there must be a more humane way of pest control.........

by the labour party banning hunting with dogs, will i vote for them - i dont bluddy well think so!

Realistically, the only way forward is for me to be Prime Minister :shock: Big Grin

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20-11-2004, 11:54 PM
Post: #10
Last Hoorah? (been here before)
I have a friend who is asheep farmer and she is anti hunt, I have another with a small holding who does not hunt but feels its ok BUT what they both object to is the hunt coming by there land or through the sheep farmers yard (public bridleway) creating havoc. Neither are rich and I know neither make more than 3-5K a year. Both are commited to raising livestock that are reared naturally and in a non intensive way. They are not registered organic as the soil association fees are too high. For both of them the country side alliance is not about hunting its about selling the food on for a fair price.
Hunting involves a lot of people and like the many unemployed from the industries that have closed those employed will have to adapt.
I would not have voted, though I do wonder if it would be illegal to just let the dogs loose in a massive doggy ramble and let them do what comes naturally.....
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