However there's a serious point to the question. Myself I see a lot of scientific evidence for the theory of evolution, and very little convincing evidence for a literal Biblical creation. I don't think this has to be a problem for Christians - one could just read the Biblical account as metaphorical. However so far as I know science has no convincing explanation of how life arose in the first place. Now this could be simply that it's one of those things yet to be discovered, just as nowadays we have a lot more scientific knowledge than people did 100 years ago. But while it remains unresolved I don't think atheists or anyone else can claim that the existence of life without God is explainable.
Mik, I just want to say, all your posts seem to make alot of sense to me.

Funny how the Bible got it right the whole time!

Isaiah 40:22 (New International Version)

22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,

and its people are like grasshoppers.

He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,

and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

- I don't think you could claim that it's innate to Germans to regard Jews as evil could you?


No, of course not, but it does lie within everyone to be blind to their own worst side and to project it onto someone else, and I think the examples I gave show it happening within a group. Take the KKK as another example.


What I'm trying to get at is that much of what we perceive as being in the outside world is produced within ourselves, and we should bear this in mind when debating such issues as the nature of God and religion.

I was thinking last night about the "experiment" theory and something quite extraordinary hit me.

What if God is a scientist?

No, I'm not trying to be insulting or even ridiculous.....if we WERE part of an experiment, God would make a lot of sense. He would indeed be our Creator, he would indeed control our environment, he could indeed make miracles happen, and he could indeed be around us all the time. In effect, if this were the situation, God could definitely be a scientist - the chances are, he would even have control of what happened to our "souls" when the experiment was over.

And if we were an experiment, would it devalue God in any way? Somehow I don't think it would.

I'm not saying this is the case (how would I ever know?) but it certainly makes food for thought.

I was thinking last night about the "experiment" theory and something quite extraordinary hit me.

What if God is a scientist?

No, I'm not trying to be insulting or even ridiculous.....if we WERE part of an experiment, God would make a lot of sense. He would indeed be our Creator, he would indeed control our environment, he could indeed make miracles happen, and he could indeed be around us all the time. In effect, if this were the situation, God could definitely be a scientist - the chances are, he would even have control of what happened to our "souls" when the experiment was over.

And if we were an experiment, would it devalue God in any way? Somehow I don't think it would.

I'm not saying this is the case (how would I ever know?) but it certainly makes food for thought.


jeeeeeeze Ceri, you been at my funny fags???? thats the sort of thing i think when i have been at the wacky baccie.........

actually, when i think about it, i only really started questioning it all after taking hallucinogenic drugs :ninja: made me look at things in a different way..... oh, and i havent done anything like that for some years now and i dont intend to again....

Er, no, I don't touch drugs - EVER.

Sadly that's the way I really think..........!!!! http://img200.exs.cx/img200/7135/eyebrow1qb.gif

Er, no, I don't touch drugs - EVER.

Sadly that's the way I really think..........!!!! http://img200.exs.cx/img200/7135/eyebrow1qb.gif Perhaps after all the indoctrination I suffered growing up I needed something to open my mind, maybe even i would have thought of the same sort of things anyway.....without the drugs, something that happened with age, i dunno......

I didnt mean any disrespect by the way :oops::hug:and I dont think that its sad in any way, we just dont know, do we!!

There was a series on C4 a few weeks ago (or it might have been BBC2 :wacko: ) about the history of the universe. They had all these internationally renowned cosmologists on, and that's where they presented the latest explanation. Sadly I can't even remember what the programme was called now!

I suppose you might find the info on the Net somewhere but I really don't know- sorry!
Ceri was that the Sir Martin Rees programme called something like "What we Don't Know"? If so, I missed most of it sadly (apart from one rather weird bit where they were talking abot the possibility of people downloading their personalities onto computers and becoming vitually immortal.)

Andrea - why thank you ma'am :)

Nearly a quarter of the UK population do not follow any recognised religion, and of the remaining 76.8% I would guess that a large proprotion of those who class themselves Christian do so out of habit rather than any strong belief.The data you cited doesn't really support the view you are proposing, does it?

One of the other things I find difficult to come to terms with is how different countries have different religions - the fact that you believe in a certain God based on the geographical happenchance of your birth.

That has to make one think that religion has grown out of myth and local legend, rather than any actual firm fact.Another interpretation could be that, in our search to discover what God is like, because we are so diverse, we all come up with slightly different ideas. For those ideas to form into a cultural identity would not be at all unusual or surprising.

When I hear a sermon at church when I read my Bible... I feel absolutely no confusion whatsoever and I just know from the bottom of my heart that God is the answer to all problems. He gives me peace.This is an interesting point. When engaged in an intellectual debate, it is easy to overlook the fact that sometimes we have inexplicable reasons for believing things; reasons that come from deep within us. (I would say in our spirits; SF would say in our collective unconscious. Perhaps they are almost the same thing.)

Let us use the "giant experiment" theory.Yes, I first read of this "theory" in an excellent short story by Isaac Asimov.

Let's look at that theory shall we? It suggests one or more super-intelligent, super-powerful beings, able to interfere with human history and behaviour on a grand unfathomable scale.

And you're using this theory to suggest that we might be wrong about the existence of God?!

A few things incidentally lead us not to favour the "giant experiment" concept. Free will, for example. Freedom of thought also.

The only thing that we can be sure of is thet we exist thanks to this 17th century philosopher - Rene Descartes - I think therefore I amHow do you know that you think? Perhaps you are just a sophisticated computer and what you are experiencing is enforced?

If the day comes that I meet/see God for myself...How are you going to know him when you see him?

I now tend not to subscribe to beliefs that haven't been "proven" to me in one way or anotherI wonder how these things are proven to you? Do you believe that Switch involves the electronic transfer of money? Do you believe that computers don't think? Do you believe that the Antarctic is real and not just a huge set at Holywood? Do you believe there are craters on the moon? Do you believe that when you die, you cease to exist? Which of these things has been proven to you, and how?

My own feeling is that there are certainly things we cannot explain - but I am happy to accept the explanation that we don't know what they are, rather than trying to fit a theory around them.Except of course your theory that there is no God.

If I promise to pour you a cold drink and make you an ice pack...Only if it's fine whisky and on no account will you put the ice IN the whisky.

I want to know do dogs believe in God and does God believe in dogs?I can only speculate on what dogs might believe. Pavlov's dogs believed that when a bell rang, they would receive food; whether they are able to formulate a belief beyond those required by their basic instincts is impossible for me to say. I have no doubt however that if God made dogs, he certainly believes in them.

If dogs don't believe in God, why, and what happens to them when they die?Whatever the answer to the first part of your question, I rather fear that the answer to the second part is "they just die".

this new knowlege like they have the Big Bang.You might have a point, but I do not think we can elevate the Big Bang from its status as theory, to fact.

Funny how the Bible got it right the whole time! Isaiah 40:22 (New International Version) 22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earthOops Claire; I've heard this used before as "evidence" that the bible points towards a spherical earth. Don't think it works though - a flat earth could easily be circular, with God sitting above it.

A few things incidentally lead us not to favour the "giant experiment" concept. Free will, for example. Freedom of thought also.


I'm not saying this to favour the "experiment" suggestion, but I would seriously question whether we have free will (which I take to mean we can choose what we do) and I would also question whether we can choose what we think. But these are probably questions for an entirely different thread.

I think I disagree.

Now I'm thinking I'm agreeing.

Now I'm thinking I'm disagreeing.

Am I conditioned to do this?

[QUOTE=Queeenie]Perhaps after all the indoctrination I suffered growing up I needed something to open my mind, QUOTE]

We have all been pre-conditioned to respond to a similar set of values and morals. Its basic psychology. From the mothers womb we start picking up things going on around us and this process continues all through life. Our habits are determined by what society as a whole has taught us to do. Therefore it could be argued that we are not even individuals, as all we are is a product of society, even the intellectuals that debate this have been produced.


[QUOTE=claire]When I hear a sermon at church when I read my Bible... I feel absolutely no confusion whatsoever and I just know from the bottom of my heart that God is the answer to all problems. He gives me peace, QUOTE]

I found this a very interesting answer. Is religion the answer to stopping us being worried about life and death. Can human beings cope with the fact that they are just a selection of atoms, the soul just electorodes flashing around those atoms, that when this shell dies thats it?

Has anyone seen Red Dwarf? Theres an episode when Kryton (a robot) gets told that his replacement is coming and he is going to switch himself off. This he tells his crewmates is what is written in the electronic bible. Cat and Lister try and convince him that this is a load of rubbish. Eventually the new robot arrives and has gone mad as he has been travelling for several hundred years. He attempts to destroy Kryton and doesnt care when the others get in his way. Just as he is about to shoot he tells Kryton its time to go to Robot heaven. Kryton turns and says its doesnt exist to which his replacement shuts down. When the cat and lister ask, Kryton says he couldnt cope - what would be his pupose in a life of service if there was no reward at the end. So why are you ok ask Lister and Cat. Because I knew I was lying.

Does religion give people peace? That every things going to be ok.

Can human beings cope with the fact that they are just a selection of atoms, the soul just electorodes flashing around those atoms, that when this shell dies thats it?

But how do you know this to be a fact?

I think I disagree.

Now I'm thinking I'm agreeing.

Now I'm thinking I'm disagreeing.

Am I conditioned to do this?

To do what Blink?

To choose what I think, and to change that choice at will.

But how do you know this to be a fact?

I don't, it was a question based on the fact that there are millions of people out there that beleive in something. If we are working on the premises that this is all rubbish then why do we have religion.

That the human race could not cope with the fact that their soul is just electrodes flying about the brain is a pretty good reason for all to believe.


I think its important even when we beleive something to ask ourselves the hard questions, because when you rule the impossible out, you are left with the possible.

To choose what I think, and to change that choice at will.

I'm not sure that you can change your thoughts at will, any more than you can change your feelings at will. That example you gave was just words, who knows what you were really thinking?

That the human race could not cope with the fact that their soul is just electrodes flying about the brain is a pretty good reason for all to believe.

Except we don't though do we? Some people (quite a lot in fact) don't believe and seem to thrive quite happily without. I was wondering this about the archetype theory as well, if it is innate then how/why do some of us block the desire for religious fulfillment? Are we just dead awkward beggers or do we replace it with something else?

I always think of the number of famous philosophers that went out looking for 'The meaning of life' - found there wasn't one and killed themselves. Like them I think the meaning of life is what you make it, in the here and now. I don't believe there's a a 'later'.

I'm not sure that you can change your thoughts at will, any more than you can change your feelings at will. That example you gave was just words, who knows what you were really thinking?
Do you think Blink is really thinking what you think he's thinking or do you think you're projecting your own thinking about thoughts onto what you think Blink is thinking??? ;)

Except we don't though do we? Some people (quite a lot in fact) don't believe and seem to thrive quite happily without. I was wondering this about the archetype theory as well, if it is innate then how/why do some of us block the desire for religious fulfillment? Are we just dead awkward beggers or do we replace it with something else?

I always think of the number of famous philosophers that went out looking for 'The meaning of life' - found there wasn't one and killed themselves. Like them I think the meaning of life is what you make it, in the here and now. I don't believe there's a a 'later'.

Jo, my (limited) understanding is that the conscious mind tends to suppress and deny the unconscious, and so for most people the archetypes remain unconscious. They make themselves known either through dreams or by being projected into an outside person or object. Given that most people treat dreams as meaningless, archetypes revealed as dream symbols will usually be ignored. I think the fact that projection occurs can be demonstrated when a person sees or feels a religious emanation from a statue of Jesus or the Virgin Mary - as a result of a projected archetype for which the statue forms a suitable object for the projection.

As far as Becks' point goes, it is a disturbing thought that my emotions are simply the result of a chemical reaction , or that my soul is the result of electical impulses in my brain. But that way of looking at is is surely the result of the 'spirit of the age' which puts the material before the 'spiritual'.

It is just as likely that the chemical changes in my body are the result of my emotions, and that my body is a product of my soul, but to suggest this in today's world amounts to heresy in the face of the great god of science.

Do you think Blink is really thinking what you think he's thinking or do you think you're projecting your own thinking about thoughts onto what you think Blink is thinking??? ;)

I've no idea what he was thinking!

Jo, my (limited) understanding is that the conscious mind tends to suppress and deny the unconscious, and so for most people the archetypes remain unconscious. They make themselves known either through dreams or by being projected into an outside person or object. Given that most people treat dreams as meaningless, archetypes revealed as dream symbols will usually be ignored. I think the fact that projection occurs can be demonstrated when a person sees or feels a religious emanation from a statue of Jesus or the Virgin Mary - as a result of a projected archetype for which the statue forms a suitable object for the projection.

As far as Becks' point goes, it is a disturbing thought that my emotions are simply the result of a chemical reaction , or that my soul is the result of electical impulses in my brain. But that way of looking at is is surely the result of the 'spirit of the age' which puts the material before the 'spiritual'.

It is just as likely that the chemical changes in my body are the result of my emotions, and that my body is a product of my soul, but to suggest this in today's world amounts to heresy in the face of the great god of science.

Ahh ok, I see now, thanks for that :)

I don't think the zeitgeist is entirely against the spiritual these days to be honest, I think it's generally accepted that there is much about the human psyche that we don't know and indeed may never know. But that's probably a different thread altogether!

Ceri was that the Sir Martin Rees programme called something like "What we Don't Know"? I

Well done!! That was it!!

To try and summarise something Blink said earlier...I suppose I feel something is "proved" to me if I can detect it with one of my senses or "feel" it emotionally. I cannot see, hear, feel, smell or hear God, and I certainly don't "feel" any spiritual connection. But yes, I do know what feeling a spiritual connection feels like, because back in the days when I was a "believer" I felt it a lot. Then, when I opened my mind and stopped just accepting everything I'd read and been told, I recognised the feeling as something else - the love I have for myself. Now, when I feel that feeling, I am very warm inside because I know I am feeling how happy I am with my life and the people in it, and how thankful I am to be here.

I now believe that when I die, I die - and as a result my life has more meaning to me than it ever did. When I was a Christian I became lazy, I thought that when I left this earth I would have another bite of the cherry, be forgiven, and have a great time somewhere else! To me, my non-belief is liberating, and ultimately this is, I guess, what it boils down to!

I now believe that when I die, I die

Ceidwen - may I ask - given that we simply do not know what happens after we die - why you have decided to make this choice, rather than accepting it as an unknown quantity?

Ceidwen - may I ask - given that we simply do not know what happens after we die - why you have decided to make this choice, rather than accepting it as an unknown quantity?

Simply because there is nothing to make me think there is "something else". I'd rather accept that THIS IS IT, than put my life here to one side hoping for an afterlife that never materialises.

As I said, I think it comes down to what liberates me - believing what I believe motivates me and gives my life more meaning, so I am quite happy to believe it. Other people only feel motivated by the thought that there's a God.

Oh and BTW I forgot - Blink I DON'T believe we are part of an experiment, but what I'm saying is you can't prove we're NOT any more than you can prove that it's wrong to say God DOESN'T exist. I think there is just as much theoretical and philosophical evidence to support the experiment theory as there is to prove there's a God - I can't see what the big difference is, except it would be unattractive to most people to think that our solar system was really a tiny "nothing" in a test tube somewhere.

All I'm doing is drawing a parallel between the "proof" people bring forth of Gods as opposed to the "proof" that we're an experiment - neither have a whole lot of hard evidence to back them up, but neither can be PROVED to be wrong either.

If dogs don't believe in God, why, and what happens to them when they die?



Whatever the answer to the first part of your question, I rather fear that the answer to the second part is "they just die".

Can I come back to this point, as I think that's an interesting response and I'd like to understand it (and I find it easier to keep to the simple questions than get bogged down in philisophical debates that I haven't a hope of understanding! )

Why do you think dogs "just die"? Is it something to do with souls or lack of? Is God anthropocentric or is it the humans who worship God who are?

If you believe in the theory of evolution, and I don't know whether you do, but I think it's generally accepted by the church to be so isn't it? I stand to be corrected if that's totally wrong. But if mankind evolved from apes, then it stands to reason that at some point in our dim and distant past, we were more apelike than manlike. What do you think was the cut off point where these beings were allowed an after-life before which they just died?

I know you addressed this to Blink, but I have a view. If people live on after they die it must be because the spirit can exist without a body, and perhaps that the body is a product of spirit rather than vice-versa. If this is truly the case, I don't see why this should not apply to animals, unless you take the view that only humans possess a spirit. But why not animals - and even plants and rocks come to that.

I know you addressed this to Blink, but I have a view. If people live on after they die it must be because the spirit can exist without a body, and perhaps that the body is a product of spirit rather than vice-versa. If this is truly the case, I don't see why this should not apply to animals, unless you take the view that only humans possess a spirit. But why not animals - and even plants and rocks come to that.

I havent read the whole of this thread, and for that i apologise. BUT i would just like to add my views.

I totally believe that we will all meet again in heaven, and that our dear animals will also be there to wag their tails with us.

Im reading a book about a psychic medium at the moment, and i know many people wont believe in them, but i do. There is a section in his book about animals, and to summarise it says:-

"Do animals have souls and do they pass on into the spirit world" is a question i am often asked. Of course they do. They are God's creatures, just as we are. At the end of their physical lives here on Earth they pass into the spirit to await the time when we will be reunited with them.



I truly believe this, and i find it comforting to think that, when i die i will be reunited with my family, and my beloved pets.

Except we don't though do we? Some people (quite a lot in fact) don't believe and seem to thrive quite happily without. I was wondering this about the archetype theory as well, if it is innate then how/why do some of us block the desire for religious fulfillment? Are we just dead awkward beggers or do we replace it with something else?

I always think of the number of famous philosophers that went out looking for 'The meaning of life' - found there wasn't one and killed themselves. Like them I think the meaning of life is what you make it, in the here and now. I don't believe there's a a 'later'.

Except we do. If memory serves right its around 99.9% of the world population that has a religious belief. You are always going to get some anomalie, and non beleivers in this case seem to be it.

Its also interestingly a mainly western experience to have no belief. Perhaps this is down to the idea of "western superiority" where individualism reigns.