A likely suicide this weekend killed 6 others, disrupted the railways and will cause months of work for rail-safety workers, solicitors, inquest and inquiry workers without any likely solution to prevent a recurrance or resolution for the bereaved.

The majority of suicides are not pretty and traumatise those who find them -particularly if they are family members.

So -is it selfish (or even murderous as in this case)? Or should we feel sympathy for those who are driven to such extremes?

I think that suicide is extremely selfish - but think that most people who are in the state of mind where they want to kill themselves are probably unlikely to be able to give much thought into how their actions will affect others, so they are most likely not being deliberately selfish.

In this particular case, if it does turn out to be suicide, then I have no sympathy whatsoever for someone who, not content with ending their own life and making their loved ones miserable they also take the lives of others and cause injury, both physical and mental to many more not to mention the total mayhem and disruption to the rail service. To me that is pure selfishness and whilst I feel great sympathy for his family I have none for the man himself. His family will have to live with the burden of knowing that he was responsible for other people's deaths. So, yes, I do think he was completely and utterly selfish.

Each individual suicide is different though and I think you can still feel sympathetic towards someone who feels desperate enough to commit suicide whilst also realising that it is a very selfish act.

I have had a family member commit suicide, it will be nearly 5 years ago, but the thought of it never goes away. He hung himself whilst on holiday abroad, so my aunt & uncle had the trauma of getting his body from there. At first I was so angry with him for inflicting this pain and suffering, especially on his parents. It didn't take long though to start to think of why he done it, and what he must have been feeling as he actually went through with it. Everytime I see a film or anything on TV that shows a hanging or similar I have to turn away as it is a constant reminder. My aunt & uncle will never, ever get over it and to be honest for them, it doesn't get easier as time goes by not for them anyway, so I do still feel anger towards him in some ways. So I am kinda torn of feeling sympathy and anger.

I think if someone does commit suicide then their frame mind is not thinking of others, they have hit rock bottom and can see no way out, their thinking will be irrational and yes, selfish. However, I do feel sympathy towards them, sympathy for the fact that they didn't ask for help, they were unable to discuss their feelings and in some ways I do not think of it being a coward's way out, and don't take this the way it sounds as I am no way glorifying suicide, but it is brave, brave in a sense that you are actually going through with it. This may come out wrong, but I know what I am trying to say, it maybe just isn't coming too good.

With regard the guy on the train track, unless he has left a note then there will be no way of knowing exactly why he done it or exactly why he chose to take his life on the track at the risk of killing others. Like Max, I have little sympathy for this guy as he has inflicted pain and suffering on other families, but as I have said earlier his mind probably didn't even register that that could happen.

There are also the suicide where the parent (mostly the father) kills the children, for me that is the most horrific kind of suicide. However again, each suicide has a story and again, they feel at a total and utter loss and feel that this will be their answer to it all, but they are not giving a thought to the devestation that they leave behind.

In most cases, the suicidal person genuinely believes s/he is of no use to the rest of the world, and therefore would not consider their actions to be selfish,

However in the case of the incident at the weekend, I can see no way this person thought they could die without harming others, and I find this very difficult to understand.

Why did this man not jump from a cliff if he wanted to end his life so badly? Or why not get out of the car and lay on the track if he HAD to use the crossing?

I really cannot begin to imagine why he chose to do something that would take the lives of other, innocent, people.

How despondent and desperate a person must feel to take their own lives. Our lives are precious to each of us and someone must be in deep, deep distress to carry out this act. I don't regard a person as selfish who commits suicide, I regard them as a person that is ill and not in their right mind. Not all, but the majority of suicides are committed by people who are in irrational mind sets and unless you have been in that state of mind there is no way to understand how that feels. I don't think that a lot of people who have committed suicide can be held accountable for their actions as they would be mentally diminished. Although I do find it hard to feel sympathy for those who take other lives with them. It's just not fair at all. But unless we are that person and are feeling what that person was, then we really can't say, can we.

Don't think people who successfully commit suicide give a jot or aware there is no sympathy for them.
Probanly felt the same when alive for whatever drove (bad word drove can't think of another)
Theie freinds and family will need lots.
In one case I knew of recently (Dizzy attended the funeral) the person was clear why they wanted to die, why they chose the method they did, and left clear instructions and money for the burial.
They left a heap of work that brings comfort and understanding.
It was their choice and they felt for them it was a right one.
INcidently has anyone seen the stats on suicides in young adults with mental disease like schizophrenia and death from other illness...last I saw it was a shock stigma for mental diseases and treatment are primitive and maybe its time we saw mental illness and uncompromising stress as life limiting conditions and wheeed out the same tender care some cancer sufferers can get. Schizophrenia manifests itself often in the 18 to 26 year old age group. It is a life sentence and a major factor in many suicides.

In most cases, the suicidal person genuinely believes s/he is of no use to the rest of the world, and therefore would not consider their actions to be selfish,

However in the case of the incident at the weekend, I can see no way this person thought they could die without harming others, and I find this very difficult to understand.

Why did this man not jump from a cliff if he wanted to end his life so badly? Or why not get out of the car and lay on the track if he HAD to use the crossing?

I really cannot begin to imagine why he chose to do something that would take the lives of other, innocent, people.Ceri has pretty much summed up my thoughts on this too. Suicide is selfish and almost always has a knock on effect for those left behind even in the best of cases (if there can be such a thing). But if this incident was suicide then I feel enormously sorry for his family that will have to carry the knowledge of the devastation his actions caused.

How despondent and desperate a person must feel to take their own lives. Our lives are precious to each of us and someone must be in deep, deep distress to carry out this act. I don't regard a person as selfish who commits suicide, I regard them as a person that is ill and not in their right mind. Not all, but the majority of suicides are committed by people who are in irrational mind sets and unless you have been in that state of mind there is no way to understand how that feels. I don't think that a lot of people who have committed suicide can be held accountable for their actions as they would be mentally diminished. Although I do find it hard to feel sympathy for those who take other lives with them. It's just not fair at all. But unless we are that person and are feeling what that person was, then we really can't say, can we.

Having had a lot of experience with people with mental illness, I am in the same mind as Tigger. A member of my family has Schizophrenia and as Sheoque says, it is a life sentance. I have seen 1st hand how desperate that can be.

When I think of someone committing suicide, quite a few words come to mind to describe their actions, but I never think of the word 'selfish'.

In some ways I think that to use the word 'selfish' is to demean, trivialise, and in some way seek to criticize and condemn what must surely be a desperate act of a disturbed person.

People commit suicide for all manner of reasons and their final thoughts are equally as varied.

The reson behind their final act can often dictate what they do to end it all.

For instance a person who has recently felt begruged by their partner (big time) to a point where they feel nothing but resent for that person and blame them for their total lack of self worth can decide to take any children they have with him/her to their death with them as a final dig at the partner they hold responsible. In other cases (if there are no kids involved) they may well kill the pertner first before killing themselves as a final act of vengence. - OBVIOUSLY this is not true of all cases involving the break up of relationships but more the extreme response to it.

Others feel so ashamed at their inability to provide for their family that they feel that their family would be better off without them. Their final act isn't so much one of selfishness but of desire to give their loved ones in death what they cannot provide in life. They are unable to accept that their loved ones love them no matter.

Others are simply so lonely that they don't think anyone will miss them.

Others are mad at the world and decide that their final act will portray that anger and are likely to do something which is highly likely to take others with them. This (if the man in the car did indeed commit suicide) is most likely this mans view on things. People can get torn up inside about stuff and if they have the inability to be heard can go to extreme measures to be noticed. Slightly different to Suicide bombers whose drive is of a religious nature.

Indeed IMO those acts which involve others are derived from issues of anger and frustration. It's the individuals last screw you to the world and hese are indeed selfish acts.

Those where the person simply feels alone or inadequate are again IMO often not acting selfishly rather more they either think they wont be missed or that the world will be a better place without them.

My biggest angst with any suicide is for the people who have to clear up after it. A body which has fallen 300ft down a cliff is generally in kit form and someone (often a volunteer) has to go and pick up the pieces. A gun to the head makes a mess and again someone has to clean that up. I admire those that can do these clean up/recovery jobs and live in the hope that one day they will no longer have to.

Coastie has explained it excellently - people commit suicide for all manner of reasons. A sort of madness can be one reason, total despair, or even some sort of scewed "nobleness". But irrespective of the different reasons for doing it, all suicides (apart from suicide bombers) have one thing in common - they are desperately unhappy and can see no end to that situation apart from death. Their overwhelming unhappiness has unbalanced them and made them lose all perspective on their situation.

I don't think it would be right to say that such people are "selfish". I can feel nothing but sorrow for them, that they would be driven to such lengths to end their pain. How totally desperate do you have to be to kill yourself?

I agree that the actions of a suicide have a horribly tragic impact on their loved ones, or even other uninvolved people such as the passengers on the train, and likewise I feel sorrow for those people and their families too. But that in itself, that doesn't alter the heartrending sorrow of the suicide themselves, and I cannot bring myself to feel contempt for anyone so desperate.

Actually, having said that I wouldn't use the word selfish myself, I have just realised that there is another way of looking at the question put in this thread, 'Is suicide selfish?'

You could say that if we define selfish as being preoccupied with one's own self, then given that a suicide must be in a self-obsessed state, then by definition suicide is a selfish act.

So in some ways, the question is a redundant one. It's like asking 'is death fatal?'

Certain people such as Harold Shipman, Fred West etc took the easy way out and I believe their actions to selfish. They had done wrong and instead of facing up to their actions they took their lives. Suicide bombers is a whole other concept as they are not killing themselves as a way out, but a means of some kind of heroship.

I would not deem 13 year old kids who are bullied constantly at school who subsequently commit suicide as selfish. As with adults who are bullied at work, who feel totally and utterly worthless and as Coastie says they often feel that no-one would miss them, I do not see their actions as selfish but as a cry for help. Maybe the people around them or every day to day people are the selfish ones because we are so wrapped up in our own little worlds to think about anyone else.

And Coastie, you have made a very good point, we don't always think of the people clearing up the mess, finding the body, what they have to deal with is awful.

I would imagine that for anyone who has reached that point, their world has probably become so insular that it's unlikely they even think about anybody else. As far as the guy on Saturday was concerned he may well just have viewed the situation as him and the train.

Newspaper reports today suggest that he was sitting in his car naked, so it looks like he wasn't in full posession of his faculties.

Hummm, I suppose when I say that I think suicide is a selfish act I am actually making an external value judgement based on how it affects others, including the people who find them. I am not suggesting in any way that the person taking his or her own life has decided that they will do it regardless of the consequences for anyone else, since, as others have said, I doubt very much that even crosses their minds, not because they are selfish but because they are distressed.

I have nursed a fair few people who attempted suicide, those I would say were the 'cries for help' to be honest, those that are really determined to kill themselves usually plan it with great thought and take steps to ensure that they don't fail.

My definition of 'selfish' is thinking only of yourself and not others and, on this basis, my opinion is that the act of suicide is selfish. Even if someone is highly distressed or not of sound mind they are still being selfish even if it is not a consciously selfish act. I don't know if that makes any sense but I suppose I am talking about what I consider the strict sense of being selfish to be.

But just because I regard someone as selfish this doesn't preclude me from feeling sympathy for them.

I agree Max, I guess by definition it's a selfish act, based on what an individual wants and not what effect it will have on other people.

But, in some cases, surely the insanity supercedes the selfishness as the primary driver for a persons actions.

Yes, you're probably right, Groucho. I'm sure there's a whole number of factors that drives a person to take their own life and selfishness is just one of them. Although selfishness in itself isn't a factor more a by product of other emotions.

It does seem (in some cases) to be a very controlled form of insanity though. I had a distant uncle that hung himself and he had clearly planned it for weeks beforehand. He made sure that he did it when his wife was out and would not be returning for sometime so that he wouldn't be found or saved. He had bought the rope and planned how and when to do it. She returned home to find him later that day.

I suppose that it just goes to show that such insanity isn't necessarily a spur of the moment thing, it can be cold, controlled and calculated and totally self contained.

I'd like to pick up on Voices comment about Suicide can often be a cry for help.

Through my life I have learned of the various extents people will go to to end it all and feel that certain methods of taking ones life are a cry for help where as others are almost certainly a deliberate act to end it all.

Taking pills for instance is more often than not a cry for help as pills take a while to work and so this allows time for the person to be discovered and assisted in time to save them. Similarly slitting ones wrists will allow time to be discovered as you need to bleed out. Jumping from a pier or running into the sea in public view without the aid of weights is also a classic cry for help. A pipe from the exhaust of a car again allows time to be discovered. Indeed with planning discovery can be avoided and the action can be a success. Basically perform the act when it is known no-one is likely to find you in time.

Definate desires to die are when a person jumps 400ft down a cliff, blows the back of their head of with a gun or uses weights when jumping into the sea or indeed leaps into the sea a long way off shore without anyone seeing. Deliberatly crashing an aircraft (not necessarily a passenger craft). Thes and other similar acts are very determined desires to die and their isn't a hope of recovery even if they are see to perform the deed.

I think all of us have the potential to most psychological extremes, given the right (or rather wrong) triggers -it’s a simple fact of humble humanity and nothing to do with insanity at all. Indeed, in some cases (the nigh end of a terminal illness for example) suicide might well be the rational thing to do. In any case, the feelings of utter despair that compel people to annihilate themselves are not something anyone can blithely dismiss as a selfish indulgence or weakness -rather they should feel fortunate if they have never experienced it.

However, people do differ in their underlying personality. A withdrawn introverted type might take a hefty overdose in private and sink into a lonesome oblivion. Whereas a vindictive heartless person might do as Hamilton did in Dunblane -deliberately take out many vulnerable people in a manner calculated to terrify and distress. When I read of suicides I guess my feelings for the person tend to hinge on that personality-type that might have likewise influenced me when the person was alive and thus it is not hard to despise Hamilton for what he did and it would take a fair amount for me not to feel likewise re Drysdale.

It is hard not to resent those who knowingly inflict the finding of their dead body on their loved ones especially if they are children as a serious suicide will be planned and a planner tends to consider the outcome. Ditto those whose suicide is an almost accidental side effect of the ultimate attention-seeking gesture, as it takes advantage of the ultimate unanswerable manipulation of others. But it’s very rarely about the individual on his/her own, but the (often rather nasty) world they live in. I feel our society, for all its ‘rights’ is infact very disempowering of individuals, particularly men who do not neatly fit into the married-with-children category or those with disabilities and it is these who are often at highest risk. The you-can-have-it-all performance-judged society is really a deceit with a high price. Those who are privilaged (especially as privilage is rarely earned) should be careful of dismissing those who are desperate and think more about doing more for them.

I think that some near suicides who have spoken have said they don't see the hurt they just imagine everyone understanding. How many funerals are blatantly unkind....funerals generally seek out understanding without incrimination, as will the coroner. As many suicuides are young men its a horrendous indictment of our society. The only suicides I have known have been young women. As for those mopping up the peices and finding them, thats something different. Not sure if i was thinking of dying I'd wrry to much about what happens after. Our friends child was very messy, the family let the medics know why the method was chosen. It is a job they chose to do but its helful to know why someone would want to jump off a cliff as there last act on earth. As for failed suicides in A&E "There but for the grace of God......

Does anyone feel smoking (as one example) is a form of institutionalised slow lucky dip suicide? It has the same loss effect on loved and not so loved ones. Should a smoker be treated as cry for help in as much they must care very little for loved ones as it creates fear in children that parent could die..........It can put a burden on children caring for a parent who has chronic or terminal illness from smoking. It costs a lot to treat the heath deteriorating side effects. Why do people take up proven life disenhancing/limiting habits ??

I suppose the same thing could be said of people who go missing. They feel they can't cope with family life etc and they just *disappear* leaving their loved ones, completely in the dark about where they are, if they are alive or dead and why they left.

Just thought i would say that in the Daily Mail today there was an article about 'is suicide selfish' and she thought it was.

I thought it was uncanny that a thread had been started on the very same topic, but a day earlier.

Does anyone feel smoking (as one example) is a form of institutionalised slow lucky dip suicide? It has the same loss effect on loved and not so loved ones. Should a smoker be treated as cry for help in as much they must care very little for loved ones as it creates fear in children that parent could die..........

Well, I'd say "yes" if I thought that smokers were puffing away with the intention of killing themselves, but I think most of them aren't. The vast majority of smokers - if asked - would say that they fully intend to stop smoking at some point in the future (presumably before they get some fatal illness through their habit).

So, I have to say "no". I don't think any smoker really intends to kill themselves through smoking. They somehow manage to block out the reality of what their addiction is doing to their body and so don't see it as "killing themselves".

They somehow manage to block out the reality of what their addiction is doing to their body and so don't see it as "killing themselves".

As many suicides apparently also don't recognise they will die permanently they see the acknowledgemnet death will give them and often think they will be back....Thats why it is always so wonderful when it has been a cry for helpas they can hopefully experience post funeral understanding while living.

I am not sure fred West Shipman aand many other high profile murderers killed themselves I think we still have an unofficial death sentence.

Well, I'd say "yes" if I thought that smokers were puffing away with the intention of killing themselves, but I think most of them aren't. The vast majority of smokers - if asked - would say that they fully intend to stop smoking at some point in the future (presumably before they get some fatal illness through their habit).

So, I have to say "no".

You never know though - Sheoque might have a point - and even though a smoker may not be consciously thinking ' I am doing this to harm myself' maybe 'unconsciously' this is what they are doing. Not every smoker but maybe some especially the really heavy smokers. The same might go for really heavy drinking.

I smoke and I couldn't care less about dying early. I don't want to live well in to old age - I can't see the point in being shoved in some awful old people's home where I'm stuffed with drugs and left to sit in a puddle of wee in the corner. I really hope I die before I ever get to that stage - and let's fact it, these days a significant number of people die through cancer or a heart attack anyway in the end - so shortening my life doesn't bother me at all. I don't have any children to worry about or to comfort me when I'm old so thanks but no thanks!

I smoke and I couldn't care less about dying early.

Bit tough on your partner that.

I smoke and I couldn't care less about dying early. I don't want to live well in to old age - I can't see the point in being shoved in some awful old people's home where I'm stuffed with drugs and left to sit in a puddle of wee in the corner. I really hope I die before I ever get to that stage - and let's fact it, these days a significant number of people die through cancer or a heart attack anyway in the end - so shortening my life doesn't bother me at all. I don't have any children to worry about or to comfort me when I'm old so thanks but no thanks!

If you do die of a smoking related illness, I can't see that being very pleasant either................

My nana is 93, she isn't in a old people's home, she isn't stuffed with drugs and neither does she wee in the corner. She is still fun to be around, not all old people who live to be a great age are like that.

I can't say how old Simon will live to, or even if I'll have a partner when I'm old. Neither can I say what I would die of, whether I smoked or didn't smoke, whether I exercised or not, whether I ate one thing rather than the other.

I don't have an obsession with growing old or living as long as I can; I can't really understand it. It doesn't worry me, because once you're dead you're dead, you can't come back and "worry" about your life. Neither can you say that if you don't do certain things, you'll die a peaceful death. Bearing in mind nothing is guaranteed, I am happy to take my chances.

It just isn't important to me to live a long life; rather to enjoy the one I have. That's all I'm really bothered about.

I smoke and I couldn't care less about dying early. I don't want to live well in to old age - I can't see the point in being shoved in some awful old people's home where I'm stuffed with drugs and left to sit in a puddle of wee in the corner. I really hope I die before I ever get to that stage - and let's fact it, these days a significant number of people die through cancer or a heart attack anyway in the end - so shortening my life doesn't bother me at all. I don't have any children to worry about or to comfort me when I'm old so thanks but no thanks!

You are describing the last 5 years of my beloved mothers life perfectly to a 'T' . She died aged 62 of emphasyma. She was along distance running tap dancer. She was 95% bedridden for the last three years. She died after being finally allowed to be DNR (Do Not Resucitate). We spent years travelling the 80 mile round trip to look after her at home. I would go at five and return by three to collect the kids from school. It was never duty it was never fun it was life.
Her death certifcate listed smoking as the cause. She had stopped smoking 14 years earlier.

I smoke and I couldn't care less about dying early. I don't want to live well in to old age - I can't see the point in being shoved in some awful old people's home where I'm stuffed with drugs and left to sit in a puddle of wee in the corner. I really hope I die before I ever get to that stage.......Infact, by smoking you are not deflecting 'being stuffed with drugs and left in wee', just making it more likely it will happen at a younger age when you will have more awareness and humiliation as a result and more of the potentially healthy years to lose.

Plus Ceridwen, you are setting yourself up for major illnesses that can take away your quality of life for a long time, by being very painful and debilitating. I have a brother-in-law who is dying of emphysema right now. He will be leaving behind a wife and 12 year old boy. He is suffocating every day and has to live on oxygen.

For me I would much rather enjoy a long, healthy quality of life, and maybe spend a few years in a nursing home, than to have it shortened and die from a horrific illness such as that.

I have a problem with the question "is suicide selfish", in itself.

We can we possibly claim tounderstand every suicide's reasons and then deem ourselves in a position to judge them accordingly?

In the same way I might chose to grant myself the right to feel that a paedophile is being selfish by NOT committing suicide.

Is suicide selfish.....????

Of course it is....people who consider committing suicide should be shot!:closedeye

I have had a number of journeys affected by 'jumpers' and whilst inconvenient and distressing for the witnesses, it's the clean-up crews I feel for....There was a show the other day and they were trying to trace as many bits of a jumper as they could before they could reopen the line.....they came to the conclusion that they had retrieved as much as possible in the dark and that they would open the line and leave the rest to the wildlife to recover....

I bet the fatality didn't imagine how that would rest with the team when they got home from shift to have breakie with the kids?????

I think it would probably be more selfish if I expected a loved one to continue living for my benefit if they found life unbearable.

I do think that it's a selfish act, of course it is, it's the ultimate self-centred, self-serving action, I suppose. But I've always thought that that was just another indication of irrational behaviour- I mean, if you're not thinking rationally, if you're experiencing more pain than you have resources to cope with, then you're not going to be able to see past yourself or your pain.

But there's probably more to it than that. I mean, aside from desperation, I think that if a person takes their own life then they can't really have been mentally competent at the time. Temporary insanity, I suppose. God knows, I've been there myself and felt thoroughly desperate and wanted an escape, but I still had the safety harness of being able to weigh up how my actions would affect the people I cared about, so that pulled me back. Then again, if there hadn't been any people to affect... I can understand how someone could cross that line if they felt completely alone and if they had no responsibilities or family to hurt.

Difficult subject, but I could never blame anyone who took their own life. It's just a terribly tragic thing.

I was thinking about this today.

I wonder whether there is much distinction between PHYSICAL pain and MENTAL pain.

If you were in minor pain (such as a headache), then you would either consider what had caused the headache (e.g. dehydration) and do something about it, or you would pop a pill and cover the situation up. You might even just ignore it and wait for it to away. If the headaches kept coming, you would see a doctor, and that would be as far as it went.

The same can be said for low level depression- it is unpleasant, but bearable, and you can pop a pill, ignore it, remove the cause, or go to the doctor.

But now let's think of UNBEARABLE pain. Let us say you have been in an accident and lost a limb. The pain is severe, crippling and excruciating. You are in so much agony, you cannot function. What would you want? I would think your main priority would be to get rid of the pain. Fine, if medical intervention arrives - they can give you morphine and sedatives that will reduce the pain to a bearable level.

But with mental torment, this cannot happen. There is no "morphine", no quick fix.

So what if you had no medication and had lost a limb? Could you deal with that pain every day and just carry on? Or would you seek the only option that seemed open to you - to take your own life?

I think this is the state people are in when they take their own life. I think the pain has become so great they have ceased to function as a useful human being anyway. Just as if you had lost a limb, they are no longer capable of caring about others, they cannot look after themselves, they are genuinely so consumed by their anguish that they cease to function.

So is suicide in this situation really selfish? Is there actually much point being alive if you are no longer able to play a useful role in society?

I really don't know.

I was trying to figure out that mental/physical pain thing too. I think it just comes down to emotional pain- and like anything else, people have different triggers and thresholds and levels of inner strength. There are people who can get on with life and make the most of it even if they've lost their sight- but I know if that happened to me there is no way in hell that I would be able to cope.

Why is being selfish always seen as negative. Doing what you need to do for you is often encouraged if the outcome looks like an all round improvement. Hurting others is irrelevant for suicide as you could feel you will hurt them more by living.
Selfish can be good.

Why is being selfish always seen as negative. Doing what you need to do for you is often encouraged if the outcome looks like an all round improvement. Hurting others is irrelevant for suicide as you could feel you will hurt them more by living.
Selfish can be good.
Although...

How suicide could ever be seen as a positive action isn't quite in my line of thinking. Even if everyone hates you.

cheerio!

suicide may be deemed selfish.
But
being selfish that is putting our own needs first is a basic instinct that we are groomed out of as we grow and develop. It is an essential trait in toddlers and adolescents so they can develop as an individua with a positive sense of self. Too much and they are spoilt too little and they feel controlled/neglected getting a good balance in developing a posiitve attitude to being selfish is great.
Allowing yourself to be selfish at the right time is essential.
Never underestimate how many suicidal people feel they are giving back their loved ones a life free from the torment that they are unable to contain. Bearing in mind many young suicides are suffering from mental illnesses such as schizophrenia. Often very bright extraordinarily creative young people aqre emotionally crippled to the point of an emotional quadraplegia. From the few I have known....the worry and pain is over for the parent concerning the child they lost to schizophrenia it is repalced by a loss of a child, twice; once to schizophrenia and finally to suicide due to schizophrenia. Suicide is much more a reflection on the inadequacies of the mental health system for children and young people and rarely an act of selfishness in the words most rawest sense.

My sisters ex MIL committed suicide. It was awfull...she did it with a definate end, no chance of being saved, she made sure of that. She also made sure all her washing was done and even posted a birthday card to her daughter on route to her chosen location.

I have very mixed feelings about this. I liked this women and really couldn't come to terms initially with what she had done, neither could her son (seeing his grief was the worst) and my sister. I have since found out a lot of things about her life, but still think if she had just found the courage we could have helped her.

Her death was horrible and painfull....but knowing her circumstances now, my anger lies else where....

But to summerise...Yes I still believe it is the most selfish act a human being can do.

A very interesting thread here.
In my experience, the death of someone in these circumstances is always tragic and leaves a lot behind for others (professionals and family/friends) to wrestle with and come to terms with.
There are some questions - are all sucides motivated by distress? Example, suicide bombers?
If someone is suicidal, is this related to faulty thinking and perceptions? Not seeing things clearly, negatively, being overwhelmed hence heading towards a major act of violence towards themselves. Hard to think of anyone else in those circumstances, the pain is too loud.
And in relation to selfishness, are we all not innately selfish? Am I not doing right now what I want to do? Selfishness is in every individual not earmarked for someone in very tragic circumstances. And it is not a blame word. I am selfish because I am human just like everyone else.

If someone is suicidal, is this related to faulty thinking and perceptions? Not seeing things clearly, negatively, being overwhelmed hence heading towards a major act of violence towards themselves. Hard to think of anyone else in those circumstances, the pain is too loud.
Yes, I'd agree with this. I guess it's a case of staying in ones own head and assuming that those thoughts, though distorted, are the only possible ones to have, and that suicide is the only solution. The selfishness of believeing, or not believeing, only in oneself perhaps? It's a can't see the wood for the trees scenario. So is it selfish not to let other's in to share the load?

Interesting, I hadn't thought of it like that before.

I think that suicide is extremely selfish - but think that most people who are in the state of mind where they want to kill themselves are probably unlikely to be able to give much thought into how their actions will affect others, so they are most likely not being deliberately selfish.

yes i agree, if someone wants to kill themselves,that is up to them,but why have they got to take others with them? it's so wrong. :sad:

that guy choose to take his own life by sitting in his car on the tracks, but the other people who died did'nt have an option.

it really makes me mad.

Little nugget that caught my eye today when I was at work.... can't say I'd ever heard the story before- is it complete ******** or am I just utterly out of the news loop?

http://www.warwithoutend.co.uk/zone0/viewtopic.php?t=16537&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=aca06e0076e27e1dfe4a6a5ce5b37ebf

No idea if this is accurate reporting or not but if it is, I would support a blackout in the reporting of it. What exactly does it achieve? It is a private personal and family matter. Newsworthy only because of the job description not on human terms.

absolutly,nobody would be interested if it was joe bloggses daughter,would they?
Cant say i blame her, with him as a father.....

I do think suicide is incredibly selfish, and going back to the train crash, how could taking 6 strangers with you be justified, even to a mind that disturbed?