As in English language. How on earth do we manage to learn all its stupid variations?

For instance - my lad was reading to me and wasn't sure about y-o-u-n-g. When he got it he said 'o - u is a silent o then'. But then thinking about it, o-u can be just about anything! as in

u.......(young)
aw......(bought)
o........(cough)
oo.......(you)
oh.......(dough)

which does make me wonder how do the kiddies learn it and how do foreign students learn it. And how did I ever learn it?

That's why English is considered one of the hardest languages in the world to learn. :huh: :)

My son is currently trying to learn how to read and write. (He's in Year 1)
They use a system called "The Jolly Phonics" which basically means learning the sound of the word by connecting it with an action. Over time the action disappears and the child just remembers the sound.
Later comes the "name" of the letter, ie how we say the alpabet as adults.

It's actually quite a good system as my son has really picked it up well in the last two years.

I'm trying for the life of me to remember the "ou" sound, but I can't remember it.
If there are any words that don't have a theme to them, they call them "tricky words" and just learn them independantly.
Which I guess in the English language there must be alot of tricky words:laugh:

My son is currently trying to learn how to read and write. (He's in Year 1)
They use a system called "The Jolly Phonics" which basically means learning the sound of the word by connecting it with an action. Over time the action disappears and the child just remembers the sound.
Later comes the "name" of the letter, ie how we say the alpabet as adults.

It's actually quite a good system as my son has really picked it up well in the last two years.

I'm trying for the life of me to remember the "ou" sound, but I can't remember it.
If there are any words that don't have a theme to them, they call them "tricky words" and just learn them independantly.
Which I guess in the English language there must be alot of tricky words:laugh:

We done that last year Andera, when Katie was in Primary 1 (same as Year 1), and it was really funny seeing them doing their actions with the sounds. I can't remember how we remembered the sounds, but whatever it was worked.

I do agree with the language being very hard, taken now from the point of view of helping Katie with her homework as if there is a word she hasn't seen before she does what is called blending the letters to get the word, but this can be difficult with words such as young or friends etc. However, their wee brains are like sponges at the moment as she is also doing French as is doing very well with that. She comes home and gives me & Mr B a French lesson! Oh-la-la!

Oh the jolly phonics - how much fun and laughter this brought to our house. What a simply splendid way to learn the complicated and complex English Language.

I am absolutely pants at any language and really sturggle to learn basic French, German, Spanish or Italian - I just don't get it at all - so am in no position to comment really.

But I wondered whether some languages were easier than others?? To me they are all of equal difficulty. You say that English is seen as one of the most difficult to learn - but is it more difficult than Chinese or Japanese or Maori for example. Voicey says that Maori only has 16 characters in its alphabet - now that is just a non starter for me - how can I disregard 10 letters???

I get so confused even thinking about another language. :confused: :confused:

As in English language. How on earth do we manage to learn all its stupid variations?

I think the reason we really learn it is that we learn it first thru speaking, then later thru writing. Each of the "ou" sounds you mention are really their own distinct sounds based on where you put your tongue in your mouth when pronouncing them even though they are spelled the same way. Just say the words out loud and you should notice slight variations...usually characterized by whether the tongue is high, mid, or low in the mouth, used in the front or back of the mouth, spoken tense or lax, and whether the mouth is rounded or unrounded in shape when speaking it. I think it is mainly thru actually writing the words that it gets more confusing, with all our strange spellings for sounds.

But I wondered whether some languages were easier than others?? To me they are all of equal difficulty. You say that English is seen as one of the most difficult to learn - but is it more difficult than Chinese or Japanese or Maori for example. Voicey says that Maori only has 16 characters in its alphabet - now that is just a non starter for me - how can I disregard 10 letters???

I think it also depends on what language is your first language. If your first language is french, then it will probably be easier to pick up other romantic languages. If it is a tonal language, like Chinese, then it is easier to pick up other tonal languages. Although i don't think this is always the case.

This is a bit off topic, but I just read an interesting article on how those who speak a tonal language have better ability as musicians to recognize specific pitches, as tonal languages use pitch as a distinguishing factor in words.

Just say the words out loud and you should notice slight variations...

Being married to an American, I 'm aware that Americans are better at pronouncing the differences between similar sounding words than the British (well, English because that's who I'm used to hearing).

For instance, "if you're full, you fool, you'll fall" when spoken by many English people, the three words would sound indistinguishable, sort of "faw", but I think most Americans would prononce them differently. Also, the English often drop off the end sound of a word - where an American says caRRR, the English say CAA so that leads to a blurring of the word sound too.

I used to teach English in France to French kids - when asked for reasons why something was pronounced differently to the theory i had just explained, im afraid i ended up saying "Because it is ..." a lot, - it was really hard to come up with explanations!! :huh:

"Wind" is a great one - try to explain why sometimes it is wind and other times wined :huh: (then there's wined and wind too i suppose :glare: ) - have still yet to come up with an explanation (apart from context of course - but that doesn't actually help peeps learning the language!)

Ho hum :ninja: :wave:

I hate teaching English spelling - it is so illogical

For example - you can make a case for pronouncing

GHOTI

as

FISH

(GH as in enouGH, O as in wOmen and TI as in naTIon)

I rest my case:)

I hate teaching English spelling - it is so illogical

For example - you can make a case for pronouncing

GHOTI

as

FISH

(GH as in enouGH, O as in wOmen and TI as in naTIon)

I rest my case:)

lol...good thing you explained it in parentheses..cause i was gonna wonder how the heck you could get the sound "fish" from ghoti. lol. I think I'm gonna spell it that way from now on just because i can. lol.

My daughter is massively dyslexic and learning to read and write to a basic level has been a lond slog. When younger she would write we could not read it but even weeks later she could. For her year 6 sats we were desperate for a two...

a question about what owl eat was answered...."tha cake werks".
Well she missed a level two by two points I asked her what she had written, she looked at me like Doh are you stupid
...they catch worms!
The other fun answer was about jennifer has 60 pens and will only sgare 4 with billy and 3 with jane and 7 with tom how many must she give to jane tom and billy to share evenly.
Her answer was like this!(I have tried to fake her speklling it was actually harder to decipher as little vowel use in those days).
I thk jenfr is vry hollbl and she not kind to be so mean and keep all pens she be told share them niycy.........oops no points there.
Language is really hard to grasp and when it doesn't come easily its so headbanging hard and fascinating.
She did start to use vowels and her writing is primitive but comprehensible and better than we ever hoped for.

You forgot:

'ow' ou in lout
'er' ou in thorough

English is a truly wierd language. It has many more words and irregular use of them than other languages, (mainly because of its rich and hybrid history) and it's interesting to note that dyslexia is more common in English-speaking countries than with other European languages.

I taught my dyslexic son with 'phonografix' which is an american system using cue words for each similar sounding phoneme, and the dyslexia institute now use a similar method. The idea is to teach all the ways of spelling/reading a particular sound simultaneously and then repeat, repeat, repeat.

The other way is to get the child reading as much as possible with whatever motivates them. Reading easy stuff -cartoons, picture books, books of lists, etc, anything, is better than nothing at all.

Which is why my son was well versed in: 'The survival guide to dating and sex' from age 11, the contents of which he was happy to share with us. Do you remember SF when this came up before and I was able to tell you how to relieve yourself of trapped flatulence on a date? I do hope this has been helpful to you in the intervening years.

I was doing my son's "sound book" with him today and I've remembered what they teach them with the "ou" sound. It is as Lucy put above "ow" and the action is touching themselves as if they are pricking and hurting themselves.

I suppose all the other "ou" sounds come along as they read more.

Do you remember SF when this came up before and I was able to tell you how to relieve yourself of trapped flatulence on a date? I do hope this has been helpful to you in the intervening years.

I'm trying to remember! My own method is to cough as loudly as possible at the same time as expelling the wind, and hope that nobody notices. The thing that sticks in my mind though is your boy's tale of a 'wankfest', which I have found doesn't relieve trapped flatulence at all - well, not usually. But I bet that's not what you mean.

I confess I have coined the term 'wankfestery' on these forums, but do not believe it was in any way related to my son!

Re the trapped wind, it was to excuse yourself, go to the loos, and assume the 'knee-elbow' position with bum in air, breathe deeply and let rip. I recall that you had some reservations as to what impression this might give to other men entering the loo....?

Andrea, teaching a 'sound' for a phoneme really does seem to help, especially if that sound has an action, or maybe an amusing picture to act as a cue. Given my child was older we allowed him free reign with choosing memorable words and pictures for sounds -'oo' was a rather graphic picture of a pile of steaming 'poo' for example, none of this cow mooing malarky.

Lucy, at my sons school most of the vowels do have an action and he is doing quite well with them all. It is amazing how much he has picked up in the last year.

The "oo" sound is the the owl. But I like yours better. Maybe I shall teach him that one, more memorable I think:)

Re the trapped wind, it was to excuse yourself, go to the loos, and assume the 'knee-elbow' position with bum in air, breathe deeply and let rip. I recall that you had some reservations as to what impression this might give to other men entering the loo....?

Oh that's right - I think I must have blanked this particular disturbing image from my mind.

I think you should persuade your son never to follow this bit of advice, it's a case of the cure being worse than the ailment. He would be better off staying put at the restaurant and letting nature take its course under the table, and hang the consequences.

Going off at a real tangent, are there any linguists here? Can anyone tell me where words come from, I've always wondered! I mean - take the word 'wood' for instance. Why is it 'wood' and not 'splunkage'.

Going off at a real tangent, are there any linguists here?You mean "etymologist". http://ellis.dyndns.biz/users/chinwag/emoticons/positive/biggrin.gif

Can anyone tell me where words come from, I've always wondered!
I have a wonderful dictionary of word origins at home, which is absolutely fascinating. The trouble with these books is that so much of it is probably speculation. There is evidence to suggest that a lot of the words evolve, and this must make it harder to track down their origins. In the case of "wood", for example, the Oxford English Dictionary (which is scholarly, but not necessarily completely authoritative) says this about the etymology of "wood":

[OE wudu later form of widu, wiodu = OHG witu, ON viđr, f. Gmc wd rel. to OIr. fid tree, wood, Ir. fiodh, Welsh gwŷdd trees.]

Translation:

Old English wudu later form of widu, wiodu = Old High Greek witu, Old Norse viđr, from Germanic word related to Old Irish fid tree, wood, Irish fiodh, Welsh gwŷdd trees.

Ok, but what I mean is - if you take the oldest one on that list, say it's this old Norse 'vidr' - then why 'vidr' and not 'krupsplot'.

Perhaps one way of asking your question is "Who decides?" With onomatapoeic words like "quack" and "bang", it is fairly easy to see how we arrive at the words. With words like "wood" - well they must have been in use for so long (with gradually evolving sounds) that the original word may have been nothing more than a caveman grunt.

Your question really is "how does language develop"? It's a fascinating question, and if you ever find out the answer, I would be interested to hear it!

Incidentally, you may find this website of some interest: Wordorigins.org (http://www.wordorigins.org/)

[QUOTE=survivorfan]Being married to an American, I 'm aware that Americans are better at pronouncing the differences between similar sounding words than the British (well, English because that's who I'm used to hearing)./QUOTE]

Hmmm America's the land where they rhyme "squirrel" with "girl"... :)

I think all languages have their pros and cons. English has a pretty simple grammar, but gazillions of inconsistencies and exceptions. Chinese also has a very simple grammer, even easier than English, but written Chinese is a devil to learn because the pictograms give no clue as to how the word should be pronounced. Personally I like German, because it's logical and consistent to the point of bloody-mindedness. But then again French and Italian are more beautiful.

Anyway I don't know of any way to get kids to learn all the oddities of English other than to get them to read loads of books so they pick it up as they go along.

Perhaps one way of asking your question is "Who decides?" With onomatapoeic words like "quack" and "bang", it is fairly easy to see how we arrive at the words. With words like "wood" - well they must have been in use for so long (with gradually evolving sounds) that the original word may have been nothing more than a caveman grunt.

That's right. I have no problem with 'cuckoo' because that's the noise it makes, so there's definitely something 'cuckoo' - like about a cuckoo. But there's nothing 'vidr'-like about a bit of wood - but I guess there must have been to whoever it was started using that sound - and it's that I wonder about! Or maybe whoever started using the sound had no idea why - that's more likely. But then - I still wonder - why that sound for that particular thing and not some other.

Of course, the answer, if there is one, is hidden in the mists of time and I guess just like many of the things I find myself wondering about - I'll never know.

written Chinese is a devil to learn because the pictograms give no clue as to how the word should be pronounced.

Chinese actually does have clues in the pictogram as to how it sounds, although they aren't in every word. But each character is made up of either one or many radicals...some radicals tell about what sound it should make and some tell about the meaning of the character.



I think english is so complicated because so many of its words are borrowed. In the national spelling bees here, one question that is allowed to be asked is the word's origin...and after learning the origin it can make it easier to spell the word in many cases.

I wonder about the origins of words too.

I also often wonder if Alexander Graham Bell had been called Alexander Graham Drum, would telephones bang instead of ring? :huh:

Hi.

I think for foreign people English is the easiest language to learn. The spelling and the pronounciation is much easier as e.g. in French. And even the grammar is not as complicated as in French or Latin.
And I think there isn't an other language that is easier... when i think of chinese oder such an arabic language....

greetz
Flo

That's very interesting Floness. Do you think that learning English (as a foreign language) is maybe easier because it is the language of the internet, most movies, and most popular music?

(i.e. there is likely to be continued reinforcement of the language, more so than when I (as an english person) struggle to learn french)

Hmm... maybe the pronounciation is (in most cases ;) ) easy, because in the radio there is nearly the whole day english music - and so we get used to it since we started to listen to music.
But the most important reason is the grammar. In comparison to latin, french etc. it's really easy to learn.

Yes, I think english is quite easy to learn, too.
But the easiest language I learned (but just a little bit) is Esperanto (If you don't know what this is: http://encyclopedia.com/html/e/esperant.asp ).. The grammar is very very very easy!

Yes, I think english is quite easy to learn, too.
But the easiest language I learned (but just a little bit) is Esperanto (If you don't know what this is: http://encyclopedia.com/html/e/esperant.asp ).. The grammar is very very very easy!


I KNOW I KNOW...(jumping up and down in excitement)

I learn't this as a project in middle school I was near fluent, unfortunately I had no one else to speak it with. Can't remember a thing now tho.

Well done PC :wave:

PCGamer, where did you learn it? At school?
I heard about it and i think it's quite interesting...

I learned it per the software "Kurso de Esperanto (http://www.cursodeesperanto.com.br/)"

Yes, I think english is quite easy to learn, too.
But the easiest language I learned (but just a little bit) is Esperanto (If you don't know what this is: http://encyclopedia.com/html/e/esperant.asp ).. The grammar is very very very easy!

very cool. I was considering teaching myself esperanto after learning how easy it is. It's quite easy to get the jist of it even if you have no understanding of the language. I love constructed languages. :)

Going back to English for a mo, there's another oddity I've noticed. You know how sometimes we use the same word for two or more totally different things. Well, the word 'right' can mean the right hand side, it can also mean to have a right to do something. Same word, no connection. Now look at the French. 'Droit' is the right hand side, and 'avoir le droit' is to have the right to do something. Same apparently-unconnected double use of the same word. Strange?

In german it's the same:
"right hand site" = "die rechte Hand"
"have a right to do something" = "ein Recht haben etwas zu tun"

...really strange...

back to english:
For me the hardest thing to learn were the 3 types of if-sentences. I learned them before every schoolwork, but when the schoolwork was over I forgot them every time...

Presumably the "right" thing relates to medieval times when right was good and left was evil. In the Latin, left="sinister" (giving us a word with a negative connotation) and right="dexter" (giving us the positive word "dexterous"). Hence right is both an antonym for "left" and a synonym for "correct".

Still doenn't explain having a right ie entitlement.

back to english:
For me the hardest thing to learn were the 3 types of if-sentences. I learned them before every schoolwork, but when the schoolwork was over I forgot them every time...


Three types of if-sentences? Can you explain? :unsure:

http://www.englisch-hilfen.de/en/grammar_list/if.htm

Hehe, I'm confused by all that.:laugh:

I tried one of the exercises and I got one wrong:ohmy:

Still doenn't explain having a right ie entitlement.
Whoops - I didn't read your post properly. http://ellis.dyndns.biz/users/chinwag/emoticons/neutral/bag.gif

Here's Mark Twain's historic plan to improve and standardise English spelling:

A Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling
by Mark Twain

For example, in Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped
to be replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer
be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which "c" would be retained
would be the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2
might reform "w" spelling, so that "which" and "one" would take the
same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasing it with
"i" and Iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all.
Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear
with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12
or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants.
Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi
ridandant letez "c", "y" and "x" -- bai now jast a memori in the maindz
ov ould doderez -- tu riplais "ch", "sh", and "th" rispektivli.
Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud
hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld.

Geeesh! That got harder and harder to read. :ohmy: