Q: What happens after death? [Archive]

Flip

28-03-2005, 08:24 AM

I love this - so many many differing veiws - this is great and just the way it should be.

I am a Christian, and I say to the children [not v. often btw] if you are good you go to heaven and bad ..... hell! It is also a handy analogy to use if someone close to them dies, even animals. Like 'so and so has gone to heaven now, they will see all their loved ones and be happy for ever'. It is easy and a concept that little people can grasp, making death not so scarey.

I often say my Dad has gone to hell. I actually beleive and picture hell to be a big black cave with boiling vats and pools of fire and sludge and my Dad is there having just the worst time ever - and that kind of makes sense to me and I am content that that is where he is.

I sort of beleive in re-incarnation, although I don't know anyone who has expereienced it, when I see them on the tv I have no reason to disbelieve them .. I quite like that idea.

I also like the idea of being a spirit, coming back to give people messages or tell them that Il ove them or whatever...

I know physically I will become worm food - and that sits nicely with my love and everending compassion for the environment and the food chain [nature].

So I guess the truth of the matter is that I know not?? I am as clueless about the whole what happens after death as the next person. But if someone chooses to believe in one thing, and it helps them conquor any perceived or real concerns about death - then that can only be good.

[except any suicide bombers who will go and join my Dad in hell!!!:p ]

Blink

28-03-2005, 09:03 AM

I think some know what I believe already, for the record, I believe that those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their saviour and children go to heaven, whilst everybody else goes to a real place called hell for eternity. Thats what the Bible says, I believe it.Let me challenge you here: actually the bible doesn't say this. The bible does not have a concept of hell as we understand it. The King James version of the bible mistranslates some Greek and Hebrew words as "hell". The picture of hell being a place over which the devil presides, and where non-believers are roasted for all eternity is not supported by scripture.

If believing in Jesus allows one to behave like an idiot, or be completely evil......which of course it doesn't...

and then get into heaven when perfectly good types get consigned to hellYour big problem there of course, is defining "good".

then I want nothing to do with the selfish, childish, petulant entity that thought that one up.Fortunately, your vision of God is somewhat wrong. But I accept that people of religion are to some extent responsible for creating this "wrong vision" and misrepresenting God.

I'd rather make my time now worthwhile than spend eternity with a bunch of silly sycophantsAre all sycophants "bad", then? Hmm... Are all religious people sycophants?

I just happen to prefer freedom of thought, and believe we are all responsible for our own actions.Me too.

that is all written by priests and the like so we all get onto our knees and fill churches etc - jobs for the boys.Did you read that in the Daily Mail?

Not harsh enough, I'd say.Don't hide, SF; how would you put it?

What about the people on this earth who have never heard of Jesus Christ................and there are millions.Well, quite. That alone should be enough to indicate to certain Christians that they haven't quite understood the bible correctly.

tonee

28-03-2005, 09:06 AM

Blink - I like your style!

Cockney

28-03-2005, 10:00 AM

Here is a little snippet of info

If you added all the people that have died since the start of mankind

It is less than the amount of people that are alive today

And twenty years ago we all could have stood solder to shoulder on the island of Zanzibar

If we where to try that today a lot of us would be drowaing

You live you die the end

Blink

28-03-2005, 10:06 AM

You live you die the endHow can you, a self-confessed agnostic, assert this with any conviction?

claire

28-03-2005, 10:30 AM

Let me challenge you here: actually the bible doesn't say this. The bible does not have a concept of hell as we understand it. The King James version of the bible mistranslates some Greek and Hebrew words as "hell". The picture of hell being a place over which the devil presides, and where non-believers are roasted for all eternity is not supported by scripture.

...which of course it doesn't...

What Bible do you read?

What do you believe about Hell? My Bible supports the idea that Hell is a lake of fire.

How do you believe one "gets into heaven" then?

Fee For All

28-03-2005, 10:44 AM

Blink, thanks for taking the time to reply - and you quite rightly questioned some of my points.

To clarify, my frustrations lie with those self professed 'believers' (of any faith) who choose to talk big but consistently fail to support their words with any actions; or worse, use their faith as a get out for any misdemeanours.

Or worse, in my opinion, force their opinions on others 'in the name of their god'.

As for what is 'good'? Now there is a question! My view is that if you genuinely TRY to consider others, then you make your time worthwhile. If there is something after, you will be rewarded; if there's nothing, then at least you'll have few regrets at the end; and if it's reincarnation, you may come back as something better than a slug!!

I have no problems with anything anyone chooses to believe in, as long as the do it wisely!

Happy Easter, oh wise Blink :)

The Censor

28-03-2005, 11:25 AM

[QUOTE=Fee For All]
As for what is 'good'? Now there is a question! My view is that if you genuinely TRY to consider others, then you make your time worthwhile. If there is something after, you will be rewarded; if there's nothing, then at least you'll have few regrets at the end; and if it's reincarnation, you may come back as something better than a slug!!

I have no problems with anything anyone chooses to believe in, as long as the do it wisely!

QUOTE]

And therein lies the reason why I converted to Buddhism 20 odd years ago, it's what you do daily in life for others and yourself that matters.

tigger

28-03-2005, 11:25 AM

What Bible do you read?

What do you believe about Hell? My Bible supports the idea that Hell is a lake of fire.

How do you believe one "gets into heaven" then?

What version Bible do you read Claire, and what Chapter, verse is that in?....

floopy

28-03-2005, 11:29 AM

I think everybody probably knows this by now, but as far as I'm concerned, when you're dead you're, well...........dead.

That's my philosophy too, in case you hadn't guessed.

claire

28-03-2005, 11:33 AM

What version Bible do you read Claire, and what Chapter, verse is that in?....

did see this Tiggs, will reply as soon as I some time to have a look ok, off out in 5 and just having a quick look at the forum before I leave

tigger

28-03-2005, 11:34 AM

I believe that those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their saviour and children go to heaven, whilst everybody else goes to a real place called hell for eternity. Thats what the Bible says, I believe it.

Claire, referring back to my post about the millions of people who have never heard of Jesus Christ, what happens to them?

Also, isn't it being a little bit judgemental to say that if you don't accept Jesus Christ then you will go to hell? What about those people who do live good lives, serving others etc? They just may not have had good exposure to belief in Christ. I think that we will be judged mercfully, and the statement you have expressed makes me feel how Fee for All felt.

tonee

28-03-2005, 12:31 PM

What Bible do you read?

What do you believe about Hell? My Bible supports the idea that Hell is a lake of fire.

How do you believe one "gets into heaven" then?

Certainly what strikes me about your beliefs (and I dont mean to unnecessarily criticise you) is how can you believe that Hell is a lake of fire? I find the Bible a fascinating book but riddled with inaccuracies. Only need to look at the differing accounts of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John to support this. And they documented, how many years after the events? If I had to write an account of what I did yesterday, it would be inaccurate. The Bible is loaded too with metaphorical language i.e. not a literal account.

Overall, what I find most difficult to understand, in general with religious believers (of any faith) is a lack of reasonable questioning. Often people believe 100% and that is the sign for me to say, if it is a matter of faith, then there must be doubt. There has to be doubt,for me to make it real.

I would be more persuaded if people had 1% certainty and 99% doubt/questioning. That is a faith I could buy in to.

Isis

28-03-2005, 04:17 PM

claire

29-03-2005, 08:33 AM

Certainly what strikes me about your beliefs (and I dont mean to unnecessarily criticise you) is how can you believe that Hell is a lake of fire? I find the Bible a fascinating book but riddled with inaccuracies. Only need to look at the differing accounts of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John to support this. And they documented, how many years after the events? If I had to write an account of what I did yesterday, it would be inaccurate. The Bible is loaded too with metaphorical language i.e. not a literal account.

Overall, what I find most difficult to understand, in general with religious believers (of any faith) is a lack of reasonable questioning. Often people believe 100% and that is the sign for me to say, if it is a matter of faith, then there must be doubt. There has to be doubt,for me to make it real.

I would be more persuaded if people had 1% certainty and 99% doubt/questioning. That is a faith I could buy in to.

The Bible doesn't have any inaccuracies, it is a literal account and is more thorough than any other History Book. The events surrounding the time of Christ were recorded in other History books too.The Bible is not just an interesting book, it is the word of God.

Tigger, answer to your question re Hell:
Revelation 20:15
15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

I'm not going to get into a huge debate about this - not really my thing, but just to say that Tonee- no offence but your post seems condescending, it appears to refer to Christians/Bible Believers as ignorant/unintellegent people who just believe the Bible because they are too stupid to see the facts. This may not have been your intention but that is how it sounds to me. There are millions of HIGHLY intellegent people who have researched the Bible - every word every translation and have proven the Bible to be 100% true, sound, solid, a foundation for their lives. Many people have set out to try to prove the Bible fallible, no luck yet. Perhaps once you've read it you can have a go too?

PS: this is nothing personal, I have nothing against you Tonee - you know that.

tonee

29-03-2005, 08:38 AM

The Bible doesn't have any inaccuracies, it is a literal account and is more thorough than any other History Book. The events surrounding the time of Christ were recorded in other History books too.

The Bible is not just an interesting book, it is the word of God.

Tigger, answer to your question re Hell:
Revelation 20:15
15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

I'm not going to get into a huge debate about this, but just to say that Tonee- no offence but your post seems condescending, it appears to refer to Christians/Bible Believers as ignorant/unintellegent people who just believe the Bible because they are too stupid to see the facts. This may not have been your intention but that is how it sounds to me. There are millions of HIGHLY intellegent people who have researched the Bible - every word every translation and have proven the Bible to be 100% true, sound, solid, a foundation for their lives. Many people have set out to try to prove the Bible fallible, no luck yet. Perhaps once you've read it you can have a go too?

PS: this is nothing personal, I have nothing against you Tonee - you know that.
Fine Claire and no, I didnt mean to sound condescending so apologies for that. It is the 100% belief bit and for you, the Bible is the word of God, for me it is an interesting read.And,as I pointed out, the gospels do have inaccuracies. However, If I did the research and cross compared these 4 accounts, then I could demonstrate this.
I have read the Bible many times, and like it but, as you are aware, I am not a person of faith and this is not my Holy Book so sorry if I have offended you. Just offering my perspective on this.

Blink

29-03-2005, 09:24 AM

What Bible do you read?I use several versions - mostly the NIV, but also the Amplified, The Message, RSV, NKJV, Youngs, Greens, ISV, etc.

What do you believe about Hell?I believe that "Hell" is a mistranslation of several Greek and Hebrew words (Sheol, Gehenna, Hades & Tartarus) and appears in certain translations, where the translators' understanding of the original texts was clouded by their preconceptions. >This site< (http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellSiteIntro.htm) holds some useful studies that you might find interesting.

My Bible supports the idea that Hell is a lake of fire.I think you're probably refering to the lake of fire mentioned in Revelation. This is reserved for Satan, and anyone whose name is "not written in the book of life". Historically, people have made a huge assumption that the "lake of fire" is a literal lake of fire. They have also made big assumptions about whose names might be written in the "book of life". I think that the biggest mistake here is in reading Revelation literally, when it is patently full of allegorical language. (Do you believe that Jesus was a sheep?)

How do you believe one "gets into heaven" then?The bible points to two distinct states after death: being with God, and being apart from God. Jesus taught that "no man comes to the Father except through me". But Jesus did not say, "only people who pray a certain prayer will be saved". It is certainly open to suggest that people may "come to the Father", "through Jesus", without having previously heard of him. See also John 10:16.

The bible teaches that God is gracious, just and merciful. If that is the case, it should give us insight into the correct interpretation of passages concerning the afterlife and judgment. It is difficult to accept that a remote Amazonian native would be penalised simply because he had never encountered a Christian missionary and prayed a certain prayer. That would not be just, would it? Moreover, it is not what the bible teaches about judgment. But I'm not sure that folks would want me to go into a lengthy treatise on eschatology in this thread...

There's another good study on hell/the afterlife >here< (http://www.bible-truth.net/Let_the_Bible_Speak/hell.html).

To clarify, my frustrations lie with those self professed 'believers' (of any faith) who choose to talk big but consistently fail to support their words with any actions; or worse, use their faith as a get out for any misdemeanours.Yes, hypocrisy is highly offensive, particularly when coupled with self-righteousness. But it is easy to make the mistake of identifying bad behaviour with incorrect belief systems. Just because people misrepresent a religion, it does not make that religion invalid.

I have no problems with anything anyone chooses to believe in, as long as the do it wisely!Sadly, very few people seriously question their own belief systems. It's too much effort! :)

And therein lies the reason why I converted to Buddhism 20 odd years ago, it's what you do daily in life for others and yourself that matters.Without wishing to pit one religion against another, I do want to point out that this is fundamentally important in Christianity also. (James 1:22-25; 2:14-26)

isn't it being a little bit judgemental to say that if you don't accept Jesus Christ then you will go to hell?I think rather than being judgmental, it is based on an honest misunderstanding of scripture. The problem is one of logic: "everyone who believes in Jesus will be saved". The incorrect negative of this is "everyone who does not believe in Jesus will perish". The correct negative is "salvation is not guaranteed for those who do not believe in Jesus". And furthermore "believing in Jesus" amounts to somewhat more than saying the words "I believe in Jesus". As several people have pointed out, your faith is of no value if it amounts to nothing more than words.

how can you believe that Hell is a lake of fire?This belief is largely due to the fact that the established churches use translations of the bible rooted in some rather inaccurate Latin translations (eg the Vulgate). The KJV is partly a translation from a translation. The Protestant Church traditionally follows the KJV, but that version has been shown to be a poor translation, and has been heavily revised and updated. Not everyone has swallowed the changes made in the revisions.

The four words that I referred to above are all translated "hell", but actually refer to different concepts. "Gehenna" is a valley of fire, where waste was taken and purged. "Sheol" equals "Hades", which is a place of waiting, after death. If you munge those two concepts into one inaccurately translated word, you can see where the confusion lies.

I find the Bible a fascinating book but riddled with inaccuracies.There are two things which typically make people think that the bible contains inaccuracies. (1) inaccuracies in the translation and (2) errors in interpretation/understanding. I have yet to come across a charge of inaccuracy, which does not have a satisfactory defence.

Only need to look at the differing accounts of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John to support this.These are four accounts from differing perspectives. Why would you expect them to be identical?

And they documented, how many years after the events?The final versions of those gospels appeared circa 70AD. But there is no reason to assume that they were not initially written contemporaneously. Certainly all the attributed authors were around at the time of Jesus.

The Bible is loaded too with metaphorical language i.e. not a literal account.Exactly - this makes interpretation challenging. It does not make the bible false. :)

what I find most difficult to understand, in general with religious believers (of any faith) is a lack of reasonable questioning.Ahem. Nowhere is this more rife than amongst people who claim to be atheists.

if it is a matter of faith, then there must be doubt.Interesting point. Doubt can be a healthy thing, if it involves close scrutiny of one's beliefs.

I would be more persuaded if people had 1% certainty and 99% doubt/questioning. That is a faith I could buy in to.Possibly, but you wouldn't then know what to believe, of course. I think that would be a rather wishy-washy kind of faith.

I have had severe issues with the hypocricy and biggotry that surrounds the Church and my family members - who as far as I am concerned, dont have a Christian bone in their bodies!!!Blammo. You have hit the nail squarely on the head there, Q. How can these people's faith be at all meaningful if it doesn't change the way they behave? The problem here is not the religion, it's the people.

Blink

29-03-2005, 09:34 AM

The Bible doesn't have any inaccuracies, it is a literal accountI apologise for repeating myself, but you might not spot this in my longer post, and I think it's an important point. Do you think that Jesus was literally a sheep? Were the Jews also literally sheep and was everyone else a goat? When Jesus spoke in parables, was he talking about things that had actually happened, or rather, was he using a story to illustrate a point? And if Jesus can use allegory and metaphor, why not the biblical authors?

tonee

29-03-2005, 09:53 AM

[/i] There are two things which typically make people think that the bible contains inaccuracies. (1) inaccuracies in the translation and (2) errors in interpretation/understanding. I have yet to come across a charge of inaccuracy, which does not have a satisfactory defence.
Inaccuracies in translation or interpretation make it a very human document which I like. If it was the literal word of God, surely there would be zero differences.
These are four accounts from differing perspectives. Why would you expect them to be identical?
I dont expect them to be identical at all as they are human accounts of their experience with Jesus. Written at the time or after, doesnt hugely matter to be honest. It was raised by me to question the Bible as a literal Godly and therefore, infallible account.

The final versions of those gospels appeared circa 70AD. But there is no reason to assume that they were not initially written contemporaneously. Certainly all the attributed authors were around at the time of Jesus.

Exactly - this makes interpretation challenging. It does not make the bible false. :)

I actually agree with this.

Ahem. Nowhere is this more rife than amongst people who claim to be atheists.
Fair point. I go into my corner if I meet strong beliefs that do not make sense to me so it is fair to say, that I can not question too.

Interesting point. Doubt can be a healthy thing, if it involves close scrutiny of one's beliefs.Possibly, but you wouldn't then know what to believe, of course. I think that would be a rather wishy-washy kind of faith.
I agree with this too and maybe why I am not a believer. Finding faith with a healthy dose of doubt in a better balance maybe. I am a work in progress!

Again, I like your style and your very interesting and informed perspective. Hope you continue to keep me on my toes!! Thank you Blink

Hugh Jaas

29-03-2005, 10:11 AM

Psychology is the study of the soul.

When someone dies on average each body loses about 2 grams in weight. What 2 grams has gone from the body? Is it the soul?

Science is in agreement that there is a soul in each of us, something that is immaterial. To all of those who believe when you die, you just rot, please explain to me how an immaterial part can rot? Where does the soul go? The body is like the shell to your soul, where does the soul go when your body dies?

Hugh Jaas

29-03-2005, 10:22 AM

The Bible uses picture language to explain things to us that is obviously true, like Jesus is not a lamb that baas and has wool.

He is called the lamb because he was sacrificed like a lamb would have been in Old Testament times.

This does not mean the Bible should not be received literally. If I say "it is raining cats and dogs", you don't believe that there were literally cats and dogs falling from the sky, but you do believe that it was raining hard. You take what I say literally in the sense you literally believe it was raining hard, but you don't believe it super-literally.

Believing Jesus when He said the only way to the Father is through Him, is not the same as literally believing he is a lamb that has wool is it, and baas is it?

I believe that we are all sinners, and none of us are good enough for Heaven on our own merit. The Bible says all have fallen short of the glory of God, and says that any man who says he has not sinned is a liar.

I believe we have all sinned, I defy anyone to tell me they have never sinned. Mother Theresa sinned, The Pope sinned, I have sinned, but Jesus being God and perfect NEVER SINNED.

This Bible also literally and without any use of picture language tells us that the wages (deserved punishment) of sin is death.

Jesus who was without sin took that death for us. He paid the price in full!

He paid the ultimate sacrifice because of our sin.

He then gave us the gift of eternal life, when he defeated death and the devil and resurrected.

But we need to accept the gift, you cannot have something unless you take it, we cannot have eternal life in Heaven if we do not take the gift.

If I give you a chocolate it is not yours unless you take it from me. It's LOGIC.

I can give you Bible verses to back this up if you so require, but I'm sure all of you are aware already that this is in the Bible.

Hugh Jaas

29-03-2005, 10:32 AM

Certainly what strikes me about your beliefs (and I dont mean to unnecessarily criticise you) is how can you believe that Hell is a lake of fire? I find the Bible a fascinating book but riddled with inaccuracies. Only need to look at the differing accounts of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John to support this. And they documented, how many years after the events? If I had to write an account of what I did yesterday, it would be inaccurate. The Bible is loaded too with metaphorical language i.e. not a literal account.

Overall, what I find most difficult to understand, in general with religious believers (of any faith) is a lack of reasonable questioning. Often people believe 100% and that is the sign for me to say, if it is a matter of faith, then there must be doubt. There has to be doubt,for me to make it real.

I would be more persuaded if people had 1% certainty and 99% doubt/questioning. That is a faith I could buy in to.

There are no inaccuracies in the gospel accounts, show me how any differ, I have studied this before and all the supposed differences aren't actually different at all. It is propaganda, seriously. Try me.

The Bible does use metaphorical language, like I said above, and sometimes when translated in English it's hard to understand. That is why understanding Greek and Hebrew phrases is important. If you told a Greek it was raining cats and dogs, they'd think you were nuts!

I questioned the Bible massively before I became a believer. Infact many scientists who have started out trying to prove the Bible to be false have ended up becoming Christians themselves.

Isaac Newton was one.

Hugh Jaas

29-03-2005, 10:37 AM

Claire, referring back to my post about the millions of people who have never heard of Jesus Christ, what happens to them?

Also, isn't it being a little bit judgemental to say that if you don't accept Jesus Christ then you will go to hell? What about those people who do live good lives, serving others etc? They just may not have had good exposure to belief in Christ. I think that we will be judged mercfully, and the statement you have expressed makes me feel how Fee for All felt.

The point is Tigger, that we all fall short of the glory of God, we have all sinned - no matter how good we are, we are never sinless and therefore never good enough to get to Heaven based on our own merit.

The Bible talks about people coming to Christ through seeing His creation. They may not have known his name as Jesus, but they accepted His salvation. There are tribes in Africa that have been discovered that have had no outside contact EVER, and talk about the Son of God.

God has spoken to people before through donkeys, it is in the Bible! So I am sure that he can make sure all have the chance to receive salvation.

Hugh Jaas

29-03-2005, 10:47 AM

Blammo. You have hit the nail squarely on the head there, Q. How can these people's faith be at all meaningful if it doesn't change the way they behave? The problem here is not the religion, it's the people.

A hypocrite is not someone who says what is right and does the other, that is a common misconception.

A hypocrite is one who CONDEMNS one for doing something that he does himself.

There is a massive difference.

I don't believe that lying is right, but I have lied. That doesn't make me a hypocrite it just means that on occasions i have fallen short of what i believe to be right.

If however I lied all the time and then when you lied I started yelling at you, THEN I would become a hypocrite.

It is normal to believe in right or wrong, but sometimes do what is wrong. That is not hypocrisy, that is slipping up, falling etc.

Hugh Jaas

29-03-2005, 10:53 AM

Unfortunately there are Christians who are hypocrites, as there are atheists.

But to be a hypocrite you must condemn or judge others for doing something whilst you yourself do it. There is a difference between condemning and believing something is wrong.

God knows that what we do wrong is wrong, but we are not condemned for it once we accept the gift of salvation.

Christians who behave like hypocrites need to read the verse that says "Judge not lest ye be judged".

They also need to follow Jesus' example when he met the prostitute, and there were calls for her to be stoned. Jesus said "Let whoever is without sin cast the first stone".

Everyone backed off and no stone was thrown as everyone realised that they too were sinners.

Tell your condemning hypocrite friends or family who may or may not really be Christians to read the Bible properly. Christianity is NOT about judging, condeming or looking down on people but infact the EXACT opposite.

Blink

29-03-2005, 11:40 AM

In the common usage of the word, a hypocrite is someone who professes a belief which his actions prove he does not hold. Hypocrisy is claiming certain beliefs, but then not living up to them. Sorry, but you are redefining the word, Hugh, and I don't agree with your redefinition.

Inaccuracies in translation or interpretation make it a very human document which I like. If it was the literal word of God, surely there would be zero differences.We're hung up on a little bit of "Christianese" here (if I may create my own words/definitions). "Word of God" seems to have several applications. In one usage, it simply means "scripture". So "the bible is the word of God" is tautologous.

I think the problem is that some Christians expect a little too much of God. They call the leather-bound pages that arrive in their hands, "inerrant", but forget that the words on those pages have had the input of fallible man (even though they may have been inspired by an infallible God). To say that no bible contains errors is just plainly nonsense. The JW bible directly contradicts orthodox translations. This is merely an extreme example of what must happen between translations. I have a lot of sympathy therefore with scholarly work to understand the scriptures as originally written/intended.

I think that when looking at any religious work, you really have to take an overview, before getting hung up on the detail. With very few exceptions, these sacred works are ancient, and original manuscripts do not exist. We must therefore accept that there is room for errors/minor unwitting changes to creep in. The manuscripts are prepared by humans, and like it or not humans are imperfect and will make mistakes. Worse - they will introduce their own spin, which is what happened with the Latin Vulgate, unfortunately.

Again, I like your style and your very interesting and informed perspective.:blush: Awww... bless you.

When someone dies on average each body loses about 2 grams in weight. What 2 grams has gone from the body? Is it the soul?I suspect that if scientific evidence demonstrates that this happens in all cases (which I have to say I doubt - where does this suggestion come from?) it can also demonstrate that the loss is water through evaporation, or something like that.

Science is in agreement that there is a soul in each of us, something that is immaterial.Although I would agree that we have a soul/spirit, I'm going to have to call you on this. I don't think that "science" is in agreement that we have a soul. And it certainly isn't in agreement about what the soul is, if we do have one. Even among adherents to one faith, the understanding of the words "soul" and "spirit" varies widely.

He is called the lamb because he was sacrificed like a lamb would have been in Old Testament times.

This does not mean the Bible should not be received literally.You're contradicting yourself here. Either you interpret everything literally, or you don't. If you don't, then you need to be able to discriminate between the literal parts, and the allegorical; the historic and the figurative. I don't think that any serious biblical scholar or theologian believes that Revelation should be taken entirely literally from the first word to the last. It is full of pictoral language. Because of this, we should be very careful before we start dogmatically asserting that a particular sentence in the middle of a plainly pictoral passage is intended literally.

If I say "it is raining cats and dogs", you don't believe that there were literally cats and dogs falling from the sky, but you do believe that it was raining hard.This is a good example, because it demonstrates the use of idiom. Idiom obfuscates meaning. We should not expect that we can understand every word in the New Testament as written, unless we understand Greco-Judean idioms and verbal indiosyncracies. Surely this is common sense?!

Believing Jesus when He said the only way to the Father is through Him, is not the same as literally believing he is a lamb that has wool is it, and baas is it?I can't tell whether you're agreeing with me or contradicting me... :unsure:

we need to accept the gift, you cannot have something unless you take it, we cannot have eternal life in Heaven if we do not take the gift.You are using a metaphor ("gift"/"take") which does not necessarily apply. I think you might be overlooking the passages concerning final judgment. If passage to the afterlife simply revolves around whether or not you prayed "the believers' prayer", then of what use is judgment? I think the relevant scriptures imply a little more, including appropriate judgment of the people who were not able to "accept Jesus", because they never heard of him.

I can give you Bible verses to back this up if you so require, but I'm sure all of you are aware already that this is in the Bible.I can't speak for everyone else, but I am well aware of the passages you allude to, and equally aware of the various different interpretations which can be applied to those passages. Let me make it clear however, that I am not advocating super-liberal interpretations.

Infact many scientists who have started out trying to prove the Bible to be false have ended up becoming Christians themselves.You're on dangerous ground again, I'm afraid. This proves nothing - for better or worse, plenty of believers have tried to prove the bible to be true, and have ended up abandoning their faith. (I think that this is unfortunately down to a misunderstanding of the meaning of the bible, but nevertheless it happens.) And similarly, many scientists have set out to prove the bible to be false, and believe they have succeeded.

All of this demonstrates that the best minds can be wrong - this is why I think we are in need of faith, whatever our walk of life. (Many scientists rely on faith to make deductions based on Big Bang theory; they simply call it "an assumption" rather than faith, but I think it's essentially the same thing.)

There are tribes in Africa that have been discovered that have had no outside contact EVER, and talk about the Son of God.David Icke said that he was the "Son of God". (He then retracted and said that he meant he was "a son of God".) The point is that different people/cultures mean different things by this expression. I do not think we can take it to mean that they believe in a Jesus they've never heard of. Rather, it is more likely that they have accessed some spiritual truth, which has not been shaped in the same way as the truth we have received in the western world.

Incidentally, if you're arguing for unevangelised tribes having believed in the true God (despite not having access to bibles or our phraseology), then there is an equally valid argument that Buddhists/Muslims/Seikhs etc. may also believe in the true God - and even in his son. They just use different language.

Think about the logical consequences of pursuing dogma.

Tell your condemning hypocrite friends or family who may or may not really be Christians to read the Bible properly. Christianity is NOT about judging, condeming or looking down on people but infact the EXACT opposite.Amen. Which is why I think we should be careful not to make sweeping statements about who will or will not "get into heaven".

Isis

29-03-2005, 11:47 AM

Tell your condemning hypocrite friends or family who may or may not really be Christians to read the Bible properly. Christianity is NOT about judging, condeming or looking down on people but infact the EXACT opposite.

Well I would HJ, but my family (paternal) disowned us when my fathers alcoholism and abusive behaviour became too much for my mother to bear!

Hugh Jaas

29-03-2005, 11:52 AM

The Bible says that whilst we are not under law, (we do not have to be perfect Christians to get to Heaven), He will discipline us if we repeat a serious sin over and over again with out repenting.

Jesus said the greatest sin is PRIDE!

If your family were so proud they disowned you then I doubt they were really Christians. Some people go to church for social reasons, or out of a sense of duty, but actually have no relationship with God at all.

If they were Christians, they's have repented by now, or had chastisement (God's discipline).

I suspect they are not REAL Christians, with REAL faith, and a REAL relationship with Christ.

Isis

29-03-2005, 11:53 AM

great posts Blink - very informative as usual :thumbsup:

Blink

29-03-2005, 11:53 AM

I suspect they are not REAL Christians, with REAL faith, and a REAL relationship with Christ.Are you judging them, Hugh?! ;)

Hugh Jaas

29-03-2005, 12:07 PM

You are using a metaphor ("gift"/"take") which does not necessarily apply. I think you might be overlooking the passages concerning final judgment. If passage to the afterlife simply revolves around whether or not you prayed "the believers' prayer", then of what use is judgment? I think the relevant scriptures imply a little more, including appropriate judgment of the people who were not able to "accept Jesus", because they never heard of him.

The Bema Seat is a rewards ceremony for works of faith, not fleshy dead works, it is not a JUDGEMENT DAY where God asks you to explain all your sins. If it were how come God said He has no record of sin, He has cast our sin as far away as the East is from the West, buried it in the deepest sea.

God cannot even look upon sin.

We could get into a big theological debate about works of faith, and dead works of flesh here, but Im sure you know what I am getting at.

When we get to Heaven we are not required to answer to anything as Jesus has already done that.

Salvation is not just saying a prayer, it is a transformation, you become a NEW CREATION.

However salvation requires no work on our part, as it is of grace not works so no man can boast. All that is required is faith, and faith is a gift from God.

Nothing is needed of us except to receive the gift of faith, and use it to receive the gift of salvation.

Ref:

Eph 2:8 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God"

Psalm 103:12 "as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us."

Hugh Jaas

29-03-2005, 12:08 PM

Are you judging them, Hugh?! ;)

Haha!

NO!

29-03-2005, 12:08 PM

I'm going for a lie down after reading all this :wacko:

survivorfan

29-03-2005, 12:17 PM

Can I go back to the original question, of life after death, and say that much like the question of whether there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, the answer is that we simply do not know.

Of course that doesn't stop us from choosing to believe one thing or another, and that perhaps it is psychologically healthier for some people to believe that there will be an afterlife of some kind.

Can I also add that I admire Blink's efforts to balance the somewhat extreme opinions put forward by the other 'Christians' in this thread. One can easily see why people are put off religion by the more dogmatic religious types.

Hugh Jaas

29-03-2005, 12:19 PM

Can I go back to the original question, of life after death, and say that much like the question of whether there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, the simple answer is that we do not know.

Of course that doesn't stop us from choosing to believe one thing or another, and that perhaps it is psychologically healthier for some people to believe that there will be an afterlife of some kind.

Can I also add that I admire Blink's efforts to balance the somewhat extreme opinions put forward by the other 'Christians' in this thread. One can easily see why people are put off religion by the more dogmatic religious types.

Are you referring to me?

survivorfan

29-03-2005, 12:21 PM

You and your wife.

Hugh Jaas

29-03-2005, 12:27 PM

So you are suggesting that because my opinion is different to yours it is "dogmatic and extreme"?

My beliefs need no balancing out.

What do you find extreme about my beliefs?

mikado

29-03-2005, 12:39 PM

(Many scientists rely on faith to make deductions based on Big Bang theory; they simply call it "an assumption" rather than faith, but I think it's essentially the same thing.)
Hi Blink, you've made some excellent points, but I'll just quibble with you here. I can think of two reasons why scientific theory differs from religious faith.

Firstly, any half-decent scientist will be aware of the strengths and shortcomings of any theory they use (such as the "Big Bang"). The development of scientific theory therefore follows along the lines of "if theory X is correct then we can further postulate Y and Z." Theories that provide a good model for observed phenomenae will continue to attract support, while theories that do not provide a good model will fall by the wayside. But either way they can be dealt with in terms of strength or probability, rather than needing a black or white truth test.

By comparison, in religion it's not really good enough to deal with "most likely" - to be a believer it's really got to be all or nothing. You couldn't really go round saying "Well it might be Allah, Zeus or Woden, but assuming that it's Jehovah then it's also plausible that Jesus was the son of God..." and call your self a Christian could you?

Secondly, scientific theory doesn't generally impact on our personal lives (I'm talking here about high level theory here such as Big Bang etc rather than technological advancement, and I'll admit some exceptions ;) ) whereas religious faith can do. For example if a political leader/party/movement is strongly motivated by religious conviction then they may try to legislate for more "moral" laws according to their convictions, thus imposing their beliefs on others. Ditto an atheist movement. Ditto community leaders such as Churchmen. Where a theory is used as the basis to judge/control/influence how people behave then I think it should have a higher standard of proof than a theory such as Big Bang which will, realistically, make no earthly difference to people's lives in the foreseeable future.

tigger

29-03-2005, 01:25 PM

However salvation requires no work on our part, as it is of grace not works so no man can boast. All that is required is faith, and faith is a gift from God.

Nothing is needed of us except to receive the gift of faith, and use it to receive the gift of salvation.

So why bother keeping all the commandments? Why bother reading the Bible? Why bother loving thy neighbour? Why bother following Christ's teachings?

If all we have to do is have faith, then I will get to heaven even if I go murder someone tomorrow then?

I really struggle with this way of thinking. Surely, the main part of Christianity is to do what Jesus would do, and to love thy neighbour?

MB White Lady

29-03-2005, 01:40 PM

So why bother keeping all the commandments? Why bother reading the Bible? Why bother loving thy neighbour? Why bother following Christ's teachings?

If all we have to do is have faith, then I will get to heaven even if I go murder someone tomorrow then?

I really struggle with this way of thinking. Surely, the main part of Christianity is to do what Jesus would do, and to love thy neighbour?

Thats how I interpret it Tiggs, and Im not a Christian........

I find the "forceful" "dogmatic" approach a little un-nerving, as it seems to be very extreme and narrow minded, I dont think that you CAN take the Bible literally, there is much left to interpretation - I find the Bible a very interesting topic as I do believe that many of the events DID take place, but I feel it is more a "guide" on to how to live your life, the 1st official book of Law so to speak.....

Hugh Jaas

29-03-2005, 01:40 PM

Because if you are really truly spiritually converted you live in the knowledge that your sin put Jesus on the cross.

Could you willingly take this sacrifice in vein, it's free but it didn't come cheap!

A true Christian is compelled by the love of God, and Paul the Apostle tells us that Christ is in us, meaning that we are filled with the Spirit. He is dwelling within us.

If you are truly filled with the Spirit, your soul will be deeply convicted if you sin.

A person changes when they become a Christian, they are new creature according to the Bible. I don't believe a true Christian could take Christ's cross in vein without coming under serious Holy Spirit conviction.

Hugh Jaas

29-03-2005, 01:44 PM

Hugh Jaas

29-03-2005, 01:49 PM

If you were being shot at by a crazed gun man, and I dived in front of the bullet to save your life, but in the process sacrificed by own.

Would you appreciate it?

If then two months later you heard my family were struggling to survive without my income, our kids were without food. Would you turn a blind eye, or would you do all you could to repay what I had done for you?

Christ looks upon the heart, he doesn't want us following what he says like robots, scared to do the opposite for fear of punishment.

He wants to be compelled by love to obey him. The greatest sign of love is obedience!

I love Christ, because He did more than dive in front of the bullet for me, he suffered for hours on the cross. He suffered worse than that though, he suffered the seperation from the Father, he that was no sin, BECAME sin for us. He was humiliated when people called to Him "if you're the son of God save yourself!" They mocked and laughed at Him.

All to save my soul, because I sinned.

I won't think as lightly about sinning again, I love Christ too much.

The Bible says "He loved us while we were sinners".

MB White Lady

29-03-2005, 01:53 PM

Tigger everything I have said comes straight for the Bible. The thing you quoted me from is found in Eph 2. Check it, it's really that good.

I know lots of people think it is too good to be true, and follow the human concept not the Godly concept that one has to earn Heaven.

The thing is WE CANNOT EVER earn Heaven, Christ earnt it for us.

Read Eph 2, you will see that we are saved by Christ, nothing is from us, we just receive it.

But when we truly believe, we will not be able to take Christ for granted.

I admire and respect yours and anyone elses Faith HJ, I personally think that there is "more to it", I dont believe that Jesus was the son of God, I DO believe that a man called Jesus walked the earth though, and was a very influential, important and good person.......

Is it too much for me to ask and please dont answer if you dont want to, but have you always been Christian Hugh or is a fairly new thing in your life?

Fee For All

29-03-2005, 01:53 PM

Why can't we just agree that after death, we simply all go off and join the most appropriate clique?

floopy

29-03-2005, 01:57 PM

White Lady - do you know you're still in your Masked Ball frock?:pimp:

Hugh Jaas

29-03-2005, 02:00 PM

I admire and respect yours and anyone elses Faith HJ, I personally think that there is "more to it", I dont believe that Jesus was the son of God, I DO believe that a man called Jesus walked the earth though, and was a very influential, important and good person.......

Is it too much for me to ask and please dont answer if you dont want to, but have you always been Christian Hugh or is a fairly new thing in your life?

I have been a Christian since I was 19.

Before I was a Christian I was a regular DJ in a club in Leicester Square, London, and on pirate radio, and used to be a completely different person.

Christ changed my life, and I didn't see it coming. :cool:

Isis

29-03-2005, 02:00 PM

White Lady - do you know you're still in your Masked Ball frock?:pimp:

I always was a durty auld stop out Floops :blink: :laugh: Dunno HOW that happened - bluddy PC keeps logging me out!

Isis

29-03-2005, 02:05 PM

I have been a Christian since I was 19.

Before I was a Christian I was a regular DJ in a club in Leicester Square, London, and on pirate radio, and used to be a completely different person.

Christ changed my life, and I didn't see it coming. :cool:

Fair enough, although I dont know how old you are now.....so it could have been for years :huh:

One incey wincey little thing though..............what made you stop being a DJ? As I am a little baffled as to where being a DJ goes against Christianity :unsure:
Or am I really just an ignorant fool :bag:

Hugh Jaas

29-03-2005, 02:10 PM

No sure, I am 23!

I have been a Christian just over 3 years.

The reason I told you that I used to be a club DJ is because people usually assume that if you are serious about Christ then you must always have been an outcast, or a loser.

I just pointed that bit out so you'd know that i did have some sort of social life, and it wasn't like I resorted to Christianity or anything!!! :laugh:

No everything was fine, I was playing records at Capital Club, had loads of friends, more money than most my age, i thought I had it all.

It's not until now and when I look back I can see how empty I was.

I haven't stopped mixing completely I still have a set of decks at home, but I just lost interest in it all once I became a Christian. It didn't seem as important, and I found that I was more happy hearing the Word of God, or spending time with other Christians.

It wasn't a morale decision, although a lot of what goes with Club Djing is bad, I mean snorting coke is hardly Christian is it?

tigger

29-03-2005, 02:26 PM

He wants to be compelled by love to obey him. The greatest sign of love is obedience!

And what if we don't obey him, but we do still believe?

You appear to be contradicting yourself Hugh, as you said earlier that you don't have to do anything, except have faith. Therefore, I understood that what you are saying you don't have to obey him, because you don't have to do anything.

What are the consequences of not obeying him?

Christ also commanded us to "do as I do". But if we don't have to do anything, then we don't have to keep that commandment.

Do you understand what I am trying to say? It's really not just about faith is it? It's about being actively engaged in Christ's teachings and work. So therefore, it's about doing.

There is also a commitment process. Do you not have to be baptised to enter the kingdom of God? So that's another thing you have to do.

Hugh Jaas

29-03-2005, 02:35 PM

No you don't have to be baptised to enter the Kingdom of God.

Was the thief on the cross baptised? No.

Yet Jesus said that because of His faith, he would be in paradise with Christ later that day.

I am not contradicting myself. Because faith actually produces obedience.

If someone does truly believe then they will be obedient. They will have ups and downs, but God will never take away their salvation, as He said nobody can snatch us from His hand. He also said we are kept by the power of God, and that He will save us to the uttermost.

If however we do not obey but are converted, God will discipline us, firstly through conviction of the Holy Spirit, then by chastisement which may mean He might take away something that we have replaced Him with in our life (fame,money, power etc.), if however we still disobey in extreme cases he may take us home early.

But our Lord is long-suffering, he waited on David when he was in adultery for a year, and in the case of some I have heard he has waited for years and years.

karenh

29-03-2005, 02:36 PM

Do you not have to be baptised to enter the kingdom of God? So that's another thing you have to do.

Oooh - don't agree with that. I mean, I could refer to your previous argument about people who have never heard of Christ. They will not be Baptised will they, so does that mean they do not enter heaven?

And what about all the hundreds of millions of people who lived in the centuries before Christ. They won't be Christian, and therefor will not be baptised. Do they automatically go to hell.

Crikey, hell must be full to overflowing!

tigger

29-03-2005, 02:42 PM

In St John it does actually state that we need to be born of water and of the spirit to enter the kingdom of God. My interpretation of that would be to be baptised, and considering Christ and his disciples were baptised, I'd say it was pretty necessary.

As far as those not knowing Karen, then I think that God will make provisions and allowances for those not having had the opportunity.

I do want to be careful here and express that these are my beliefs, and that everyone else has the right to believe or choose what they wish. I don't want to be seen as cramming it down anyone's throats, as that is not my style. :)

Hugh Jaas

29-03-2005, 02:46 PM

The Old Testament spoke about the coming Messiah, and people were saved by Christ before Christ came in time, because they still had faith in Him.

Read my previous post on baptism. It is not a requirement of salvation AT ALL. Proven by the thief on the cross who Jesus said would see Him in paradise, purely because of his faith.

Hugh Jaas

29-03-2005, 02:49 PM

Fair enough Tigger, but how do you explain the thief on the cross whom Jesus himself told him he would go to Heaven, and he wasn't baptised.

Jesus and the disciples were all baptised, as am I. It is publicly display of humility and faith, but is CERTAINLY NOT a requirement of faith.

If it were then Jesus lied to the thief on the cross.

karenh

29-03-2005, 02:49 PM

I do want to be careful here and express that these are my beliefs, and that everyone else has the right to believe or choose what they wish. I don't want to be seen as cramming it down anyone's throats, as that is not my style. :)

You don't come across that way at all Tigger, I promise. I've always had the impression that, whilst you are strong in your own beliefs, you have the utmost respect for the views of others.

tigger

29-03-2005, 02:51 PM

tigger

29-03-2005, 02:54 PM

You don't come across that way at all Tigger, I promise. I've always had the impression that, whilst you are strong in your own beliefs, you have the utmost respect for the views of others.

Thank you Karen, I much appreciate that.:)

Hugh Jaas

29-03-2005, 03:02 PM

"Father into your hands I commit my spirit" from what Christ said before He gave up His spirit, I'd guess He went to be with the Father.

tonee

29-03-2005, 03:05 PM

I'm going for a lie down after reading all this :wacko:
Dont mean to suggest anything PJ, but I might join you. Symbolically.

tigger

29-03-2005, 03:11 PM

"Father into your hands I commit my spirit" from what Christ said before He gave up His spirit, I'd guess He went to be with the Father.

But he also stated to Mary Magdelene after he appeared to her in the garden, "Touch me not for I have not yet ascended to my Father".

Hugh, I respect your beliefs, but I feel we are going around in a circular discussion here, which will go nowhere, and which I am sure is boring everyone else on the board. So let's leave it here eh?:)

Blink

29-03-2005, 05:16 PM

The Bema Seat...Yeah - I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about judgment for non-believers.

We could get into a big theological debate about works of faith, and dead works of flesh here, but Im sure you know what I am getting at.No need - the issue was whether or not a non-Christian could attain heaven. You might be interested in >this article< (http://www.freewebs.com/gracenet2/bs_bemaon.html), by the way.

Hi Blink, you've made some excellent points, but I'll just quibble with you here.Oh Mick, do you have to?! :D

Firstly, any half-decent scientist will be aware of the strengths and shortcomings of any theory they use (such as the "Big Bang").Well I don't tend to mix with scientists, but I know for sure that there are plenty of non-scientists out there who pin their hopes on scientific theories... :)

Theories that provide a good model for observed phenomenae will continue to attract support, while theories that do not provide a good model will fall by the wayside.Well that is a good point - and in fact many people (myself included) apply this kind of scrutiny to their faith. I hope that we do so honestly.

By comparison, in religion it's not really good enough to deal with "most likely" - to be a believer it's really got to be all or nothing.Actually, I'm not sure it is as black and white as it might appear to you.

You couldn't really go round saying "Well it might be Allah, Zeus or Woden, but assuming that it's Jehovah then it's also plausible that Jesus was the son of God..." and call your self a Christian could you?That might be a starting point on a journey towards (or away from) Christianity. A lot of people at the point of conversion would say that they do suddenly have a conviction (of truth) that they never previously experienced. When I was converted at the tender age of 4, I underwent a personality change. That's not something that can be reasoned or explained scientifically, for sure. Not in a four year-old.

Secondly, scientific theory doesn't generally impact on our personal lives (I'm talking here about high level theory here such as Big Bang etc rather than technological advancement, and I'll admit some exceptions )On the contrary, given how scientific theories tend to be trotted out in discussions such as this, and spouted as fact (that hasn't happened in this thread, amazingly), it seems as though these theories DO impact people's personal lives and beliefs. If only as a kind of bat to ward off proselytising attacks. :D

If all we have to do is have faith, then I will get to heaven even if I go murder someone tomorrow then?I would say that such action could only really be taken if someone was not truly of faith. (Hugh and I agree here, I think.) Show me anyone who claims to be a Christian, and Buddhist or whatnot, and I will show your their deeds. You can then judge for yourself whether or not their faith is real.

Do you not have to be baptised to enter the kingdom of God? So that's another thing you have to do.Not according to the teachings of the orthodox wings of the Christian church. You're citing John 3:5, and making the assumption that "born of water" means "baptised". But since water is frequently used allegorically in the bible to symbolise purity and holiness, this may be Jesus' application of the word. In any event, there can be no question that he is speaking mystically, at least in part, since he refers also to being "born of the spirit". (Some people capitalise the 's'.) I refer you to a good article on this point, >here< (http://www.justforcatholics.org/a25.htm). It is Catholic biased, and that may put some readers off. But I think that would be unfair, since it seems to me to be a sound, balanced article.

In respect of this thread, no the bible does not teach that water baptism is essential for salvation. It teaches that baptism should be an automatic part of the conversion process. It is symbolic, and you do it; but it is not a pre-requisite for salvation.

Where did Jesus go when he died and for the three days after his death?Firstly there's no point in getting bogged down in concepts of time and space, when talking about a person who was dead. Secondly, it is not essential to know where he went. Personally, I'm not sure about it - the bible doesn't say much explicitly, which I take to mean that it's not terribly important. Of the views I have considered, you'll find one of the most balanced, >here< (http://www.behindthebadge.net/apologetics/discuss161.html). Whether I agree with it entirely, I'm not sure.

What seems unlikely is that Jesus went to heaven at that point, for the reason you stated (the encounter with Mary Magdelene at the tomb).

Minklemar

29-03-2005, 05:25 PM

Did I read right?- ALL children go to heaven? What about kids like the ones who killed Jamie Bulger? What about kids who tie fireworks to animals - surely they don't get a free pass?

I don't like children, if heaven is full of children that would be my idea of hell

Ceridwen

29-03-2005, 06:00 PM

I am not going to argue with anybody's biblical interpretations here (God himself forbid!) :laugh:

However there was something in one of Blink's earlier posts that contradicts things I have read.

One of the links about the "Lake of Fire" stated that Hell is a pagan invention. I have to say this is not so. Pagans do not believe in the Devil, or Hell, because they don't believe in the one God (let alone a "good" one) and they don't believe in Heaven either. Pagans do not believe anything is either wholly "good" or "evil", they believe there is light and dark, male and female, good and evil, (i.e. duality) in all things.

Pagans have only one "rule" - "Do as thou wilt, an' it harm none" (essentially do whatever you want, so long as it harms no one including yourself - although what is defined as "harm" I do not know).

I have read a lot about this, and history books suggest the Devil is in fact a human distortion of the pagan Hunting God.

For those who don't know, pagans are nature worshipping people. They don't have "Gods" in the sense of most other religions, their way of life is just about being in touch with the natural world and feeling at one with All That Is. They use many "Gods" in their rituals, but these are not really seen as "beings" or "entities" like in the more popular religions, they are more channels to direct energy to.

Early pagans faced different problems from today's society, and therefore most rituals revolved around hunting or fertility. To heighten the power of their spells (which are effectively "prayers"), they would fashion an object into a suitable shape and place it on the altar. This object would essentially be their "God". The "God of Hunting" was usually a symbolic Horned God, used to direct energy to in order to ensure success in hunting.

It is documented that some pagans refused to convert to Christianity when it was "pushed" in this country, and the Horned God was therefore turned in to the Devil that we see today. As Blink says, the Bible may never have literally introduced the concept of Hell at all; however it is easy to see how Hell would be a useful invention to persuade those wavering on the brink of conversion.

I suspect a lot of misinterpretation (whether wilful or otherwise) occurred around that time.

There is an article here which explains this far better than I could:

http://www.lugodoc.demon.co.uk/FALSGODS.htm

I am going away now as I just know Blink is gonna pick on me! :laugh:

mikado

29-03-2005, 06:11 PM

A lot of people at the point of conversion would say that they do suddenly have a conviction (of truth) that they never previously experienced. When I was converted at the tender age of 4, I underwent a personality change. That's not something that can be reasoned or explained scientifically, for sure. Not in a four year-old.
Blimey, so converting my kids to Christianity could improve their behaviour? Where do I go to book a couple of conversions then? ;)

Seriously though, I think that the "point of conversion" is indeed the point. Before conversion one could afford to be wishy washy about belief (and presumably would be less likely to be saved as a result) whereas after conversion it's got to be all-in 100% faith surely? Whereas science, by comparison, doesn't require a "conversion".

Four sounds awfully young to convert TBH. Obviously it worked well for you, but in the case of my own 4 year old he's still not sure whether or not Darth Vader is a real person. He wouldn't have a chance of understanding the mysteries of God :)

Ceridwen

29-03-2005, 06:20 PM

BTW...

The stuff I have discussed here is what I have read, just like everybody else. Ultimately, NONE of us were around when the world was created, and none of us can therefore claim to be an authority on what ACTUALLY happened.

The only thing I can say with absolute certainty is that pagans/wiccans/witches DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE DEVIL OR HELL. To ask them to do so would be like asking a Christian to refute the existence of God. Devil worshippers/Satanists/black magicians (often mistaken for witches or pagans) are something completely different, and have nothing at all to do with the pagan philosophy.

I can say this with authority because, as you have probably guessed, I was once a practising witch. At the end of the day, they are tree huggers, they don't cause any harm - at worst they are a bit dotty. (And they do have an unnerving tendency to dance about naked in the woods late at night!) No one ever fought a war over a cloud after all, did they? :laugh:

mikado

29-03-2005, 06:22 PM

One of the links about the "Lake of Fire" stated that Hell is a pagan invention. I have to say this is not so. Pagans do not believe in the Devil, or Hell, because they don't believe in the one God (let alone a "good" one) and they don't believe in Heaven either. Pagans do not believe anything is either wholly "good" or "evil", they believe there is light and dark, male and female, good and evil, (i.e. duality) in all things.

Pagans have only one "rule" - "Do as thou wilt, an' it harm none" (essentially do whatever you want, so long as it harms no one including yourself - although what is defined as "harm" I do not know).
Ceri I think that "pagan" is used to mean "anything other than Christian" so it would include Greek, Roman, Celtic, Norse, Egyptian, etc, etc mythologies. Thus "Hell" was invented by a non-Christian belief.

It sounds from what you describe that the word "pagan" has been redefined by someone to mean a particular type of belief. It sounds like they are trying to hijack the meainng of the word.

Ceridwen

29-03-2005, 06:24 PM

Ceri I think that "pagan" is used to mean "anything other than Christian" so it would include Greek, Roman, Celtic, Norse, Egyptian, etc, etc mythologies.

Paganism these days is usually (I believe) taken to mean some form of nature worship. Books I have read suggest that early people did indeed "worship" nature (makes sense really, as they didn't have books to read, churches to attend, or any language that we are aware of).

Whether "pagan" has a different meaning to Christians, I don't know.

mikado

29-03-2005, 06:33 PM

Ceridwen

29-03-2005, 07:05 PM

Ceri "pagan" has a different meaning in the dictionary to the one you describe. The word "pagan" has been used to describe non-Christians for far longer than religions like Wicca (in its modern incarnation) have been around.

I'm sure you are right that primitive people worshipped nature. I'm not sure whether they all necessarily worshipped nature in the same way though.

To be honest Mik, I have never known it to mean anything other than nature worshipping, so apologies for any confusion; it wasn't intentional.

The text I referred to said Hell was a "pagan" invention, so I am unsure what it meant in that context. I doubt whether all non-Christians could be accused of inventing Hell?

And as I said earlier, we can't comment for definite on what primitive people did or didn't do, we can only make an educated guess based on cave paintings etc. :)

Marmoset

29-03-2005, 10:38 PM

Coming in late on this, but...

I like and want to think that after we die our soul, or spirit lives on, maybe not in a solid, three dimensional body, but as something, somewhere.

I wouldnt say I subscribed to any religion, but looking how I live my life I guess I err on the side of Paganism, ie, I rejoice and find comfort in the natural world.

I guess with our demises we will all find out the truth, and not until.

M

Blink

30-03-2005, 06:30 AM

Did I read right?- ALL children go to heaven?Urg. I think Christians would have to allow for God to make just decisions. Whether an evil child would get into heaven is not for me to say. I do think though that an "evil child" should be judged by a different standard to an evil adult, for the simple reason that it is usually adult behaviour that has made the children evil. The child's degree of responsibility is less than the adult's.

I don't like children, if heaven is full of children that would be my idea of hellI very much doubt that anyone who arrived in heaven would dislike the place.

One of the links about the "Lake of Fire" stated that Hell is a pagan invention.I think that concepts of "hell" are drawn from various polytheistic and pantheistic religions. Principally the idea has been traced back to early Egyptian faith, with its concepts of rewards and punishments in the afterlife. Egyptian (and later Greek) religion would have been regarded as "pagan" by Jews and Christians.

In my experience, the modern use of the word "pagan" seems largely to refer to Wicca, which is of course a modern blending of older belief systems, with some New Age mysticism thrown in.

it is easy to see how Hell would be a useful invention to persuade those wavering on the brink of conversion.And it is this kind of behaviour that rightly earned some church leaders a reputation for manipulation and scaremongering. It still goes on today. All I can plead is, don't tar all Christians with the same brush. Believe it or not, these headline-seekers are very much in the minority.

I am going away now as I just know Blink is gonna pick on me!I saw nothing to pick on, but if you'd like me to pick on you, I surely can. :) That article you refer to incidentally appears to have been written by someone who does not understand the Christian concept of God, so please don't take it as authoritative in that respect.

whereas after conversion it's got to be all-in 100% faith surely?A lot of people post-conversion remain wishy-washy...

Whereas science, by comparison, doesn't require a "conversion".Maybe not, but I still detect a very similar kind of religious fervour amongst people who put their trust in science. They defend their beliefs with as much conviction as any religious zealot you may care to mention. You only have to listen to someone saying, "Science tells us that..." to see that science has become omniscient - god-like.

Perhaps not all scientists behave this way; neither do all people of faith behave the way you think. :)

Four sounds awfully young to convert TBH.I was nearly five, if that helps. :) Don't worry though - I have repeatedly questioned and exmained my faith subsequently. My beliefs now are a long way from what they were then.

in the case of my own 4 year old he's still not sure whether or not Darth Vader is a real person.I was quite precocious, and fairly clear about the difference between reality and fantasy. I knew the status of Santa Claus quite early on, for example. :)

I guess with our demises we will all find out the truth, and not until.The worry is that that may be rather too late to be making religious choices. :wacko:

Ceridwen

30-03-2005, 07:08 AM

Blink you knew about Father Xmas at an early age - that's dreadful! :wink2:

Thanks for clearing up the query on that article, much obliged. You are a star. :D

survivorfan

30-03-2005, 09:55 AM

So you are suggesting that because my opinion is different to yours it is "dogmatic and extreme"?

My beliefs need no balancing out.

What do you find extreme about my beliefs?

More your approach really. You quote Bible chapter and verse all the time, like one of those people who stand on the street corner waving the good book and praising Jesus.

Hugh Jaas

30-03-2005, 10:04 AM

That's because Tigger asked where in the Bible I got my beliefs from.

tigger

30-03-2005, 10:07 AM

Errmm, sorry, but I think you were quoting scriptures before I mentioned anything.

Hugh Jaas

30-03-2005, 10:13 AM

What version Bible do you read Claire, and what Chapter, verse is that in?....

This was posted before i even posted on this thread, and Claire asked me to help her out.

So you actually asked for Chapter and verse before I was even on the thread, although you hadn't yet asked me personally.

Besides, what is wrong with quoting the Bible when discussing the Bible?

survivorfan

30-03-2005, 10:15 AM

Well it's nothing to do with Tigger. As you yourself said, Hugh:

everything I have said comes straight for the Bible.

Isis

30-03-2005, 10:19 AM

More your approach really. You quote Bible chapter and verse all the time, like one of those people who stand on the street corner waving the good book and praising Jesus.

In all honesty, I too found this about your approach Hugh - which is why I asked if you were a recent "convert to Christianity"........

A friend of mine converted about 3 years ago after a traumatic experience, she turned to the church who gave her the comfort she obviously needed, but ever since, she has been dogmatic and extreme in trying to convert every one she knows - telling us all we "need saving".....

I DID attend an "Alpha" supper with her - mainly to shut her up :blush: and I did find a new friend out of it, my local Vicar, he was such an interesting man to talk to - but he never tried to force religion on me, we had some great talks about "the meaning of life" over the last few years I was in Leamington, although we didnt agree on it, I did appreciate his knowledge and respected his beliefs - bit like me and our darling Blink :wink_kiss

One thing I did notice at the supper I attended (nice bit of scran it was too) that the "congregation" were split into categories.......

there were what I call the true Christians, who live their life in a good, peaceful and honest way and would do anything to help another.......

then there were what I called (and I really dont mean to be patronising or condescending even if it sounds it) the "lost souls", people who had been through the mill, had some trauma and pain in their lives, so had turned to the church for comfort....

and then there were a handful of "addicts", who (allegedly) were clean and trying to rebuild their lives - one of them was knocking out smack on a daily basis in the same block of flats as my mate lives, and I felt that these people were using and abusing the hospitality and kindness that was being offered by the church - ie the Vicar standing up in court for one of them when he was charged with aggrivated burglary, Vicar saved his ass, only for him to end up on fire arm and dealing charges shortly after!

Maybe I do have a narrowminded point of view based on my own experience with organised religion, I dont know, but I like Marms, tend to lean towards the Pagan views, which is live in harmony with nature and the planet.....I just dont know enough about it all to have a God that I worship! I also feel that we will know the answers when we die - gutted!!!

Hugh Jaas

30-03-2005, 10:20 AM

I don't see your point Survivorfan?

There was a discussion on the Bible, Tigger asked which chapter and verse, I gave chapter and verse.

You weren't even involved in the thread, yet you come in late on and start accusing me of having an extreme style etc.

I don't understand what your problem is?

survivorfan

30-03-2005, 10:22 AM

Hugh Jaas

30-03-2005, 10:26 AM

Queenie sorry if I offended you but I was in a discussion with Blink and Tigger, I was not trying to force my beliefs on anyone else at all.

I think that is a very dangerous approach to persue.

I have explained before why I quoted the Bible, and when discussing with other Christians I fail to see how this is an issue.

I haven't quoted the Bible directly to anyone other than Tigger and Blink, so there is no need for yourself or Survivorfan to feel like I am forcing my beliefs on you two.

Tigger was the first one to ask about chapter and verse. Gee Whizz I can't believe anyone is actually bothered that I should quote the Bible to show why I believe what I do.

If you don't want to know, don't ask. Tigger asked.

Hugh Jaas

30-03-2005, 10:27 AM

You asked me what I found extreme about you - and so I told you.

I still can't see how it is extreme to answer a question, with Bible verses, when the question was "which bible verses did you get that from"?

Sorry, I am just really puzzled.

Isis

30-03-2005, 10:32 AM

Queenie sorry if I offended you but I was in a discussion with Blink and Tigger, I was not trying to force my beliefs on anyone else at all.

I think that is a very dangerous approach to persue.

I have explained before why I quoted the Bible, and when discussing with other Christians I fail to see how this is an issue.

Hugh hunnie, you havent offended me, and I hope I havent offended you :unsure: but I have to be honest about what I see/feel/think, and in this instance, I did find your approach to be dogmatic - your style is very different to Blink and Tiggs, and I DO value all of your opinions, dirtly old heathen that I am :wink_kiss :laugh:

Hugh Jaas

30-03-2005, 10:35 AM

You couldn't offend me if you tried Queenie babes! :laugh:

survivorfan

30-03-2005, 10:36 AM

I still can't see how it is extreme to answer a question, with Bible verses, when the question was "which bible verses did you get that from"?

Sorry, I am just really puzzled.

When I used the term 'chapter and verse' I meant spouting the Bible, I didn't mean literally giving the number of the verse.

Isis

30-03-2005, 10:39 AM

You couldn't offend me if you tried Queenie babes! :laugh:

DONT set me a task Hugh :devil: :laugh: :laugh:

Minklemar

30-03-2005, 10:56 AM

Blink - could you have a read of this an tell me what you think please?

During one of my confirmation classes it was mentioned that animals don't go to heaven as they have no souls. Another member of the group got very upset at this, started crying and said that if there were no aminals in heaven then she didn't want to go there - to this the person leading the group answered that if this person needed animals to be in heaven for it to be 'heaven' to her, then there would be animals there for her.
I was a bit baffled by this - was it just a way to shut the girl up, or is it that heaven is different for each person?

claire

30-03-2005, 11:14 AM

SF, you mentioned something about my husband and I and our beliefs. To be honest, I don't think I shove anything down anybody's throat. I don't think I'm extreme. I believe what I believe and to be honest, I couldn't care less if I convince anybody of my beliefs, its a personal thing for me, but if somebody genuinely is interested in knowing what I believe, then I'll tell them - thats that.

When I started the thread, I wasn't even going to mention my own beliefs and decided on a short statement to sum them up just so that I was also taking part. I was actually genuinely more interested in the beliefs of others. I don't judge others, no matter how much I disagree with their beliefs. Most of my friends are non Christians and my beliefs have never bothered them in the slightest. You won't find me bible bashing anybody.

survivorfan

30-03-2005, 12:36 PM

I think your opinion that eveything in the Bible is literally true is an extreme one. As is your view that anyone who does not accept Jesus as you do will go to hell.

Hugh Jaas

30-03-2005, 12:41 PM

I think your view that any of us deserve Heaven based on our own self-righteousness is an extreme one.

survivorfan

30-03-2005, 12:44 PM

I think your view that any of us deserve Heaven based on our own self-righteousness is an extreme one.

Who - me? Where did I say that?

Hugh Jaas

30-03-2005, 12:45 PM

Who - me? Where did I say that?

Well if you don't need Jesus for Heaven, how else do you get there?

survivorfan

30-03-2005, 12:46 PM

Well, that's your question not mine, I'll leave you work on it.

claire

30-03-2005, 12:49 PM

I think your opinion that eveything in the Bible is literally true is an extreme one. As is your view that anyone who does not accept Jesus as you do will go to hell.

You are entitled to your own opinion about anybody's beliefs. It shouldn't really bother you though, as I am not harming anybody by believing what I do, and don't force others to believe the same.

Hugh Jaas

30-03-2005, 12:49 PM

It's not my question, because I believe Jesus is the only way to Heaven.

Hugh Jaas

30-03-2005, 12:52 PM

Claire I think SF doesn't actually have a point, but is just irritated with us for having a belief different to his.

survivorfan

30-03-2005, 12:56 PM

You are entitled to your own opinion about anybody's beliefs. It shouldn't really bother you though, as I am not harming anybody by believing what I do, and don't force others to believe the same.

It doesn't bother me at all, I'm just pointing out which of your views I think are extreme.

survivorfan

30-03-2005, 12:57 PM

It's not my question

I'm sorry Hugh it was, you just asked it!

Hugh Jaas

30-03-2005, 01:15 PM

Well if you can't answer it, how can you suggest my view is extreme? You have offered no alternative view.

survivorfan

30-03-2005, 01:16 PM

I think this is what could be called 'fuzzy logic'!

Hugh Jaas

30-03-2005, 01:18 PM

Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay then! :wacko:

survivorfan

30-03-2005, 01:23 PM

Well if you can't answer it, how can you suggest my view is extreme? You have offered no alternative view.

Some questions are simply bad questions in that they have a built in unanswerability - yours was one of them.

Hugh Jaas

30-03-2005, 01:25 PM

I think that was my que to leave.....

Thanks sf your posts have been most constructive, and a rewarding read! :bored:

Isis

30-03-2005, 01:33 PM

Well if you don't need Jesus for Heaven, how else do you get there?

I dont know about SF, but as I dont believe in Jesus as the son of God, then heaven is irrellavant......

Heaven and Hell were invented BY man FOR man - to control the masses and to keep the poor man down - throughout history, the poor have been indoctrinated and fed the hellfire and brimstone by the rich and powerful to ensure they do as they are told - you dont often see a poor Church or Church Leaders do you?

The Catholic Church is one of the RICHEST organisations in the WORLD - you dont see them handing it out to those that need it though do you - very Christian!

Hugh Jaas

30-03-2005, 01:38 PM

Yeah well I can't answer for the Catholic church, but my church can't afford it's own building it has to rent from the council.

The church leader/pastor earns £17,000 P/A and in London that is nothing, especially when he is a father of two teenagers, and he has two degrees.

His intentions have absolutely nothing to do with financial gain.

I agree that there are churches, particularly catholic ones whose motives seem to be a bit off key, but I know that is not the case with true Christians.

It is a real shame that these corrupted churches have caused so much problems and distrust, but then that is why I don't attend a church like that.

Isis

30-03-2005, 01:48 PM

I agree that there are churches, particularly catholic ones whose motives seem to be a bit off key, but I know that is not the case with true Christians.

It is a real shame that these corrupted churches have caused so much problems and distrust, but then that is why I don't attend a church like that.

But wasnt Catholism the "father" of all Christian Religion?

England itself was a Catholic Country until Henry VIII decided he wanted a divorce and the Pope wouldnt allow it, therefore the Church of England Protestants were born.......with a whole new set of rules to suit Henry VIII - whos to say that every ruler in time hasnt amended the "rules" of Christianity to suit their needs?

At the end of the day, we mere mortals believe what we are told by the "powers that be" - going back Centuries the Church ALWAYS played a big part in the ruling of nations.........now its left to the likes of George Dubblya, Tony Blair, Saddam Hussain etc etc.......and I dont think that going to war on the basis of a lie is very Christian........

WOMD???? WOMD my ar$e!!!!! Its about POWER and GREED and it has been for CENTURIES!

but these are the views of a mad old hippie somewhere in the south west :D

Hugh Jaas

30-03-2005, 01:57 PM

Isis

30-03-2005, 02:29 PM

Catholicism when it began is not what it is today, there was no pope, no different Bible.

Catholicism in it's true meaning means follower of Christ, or something similar, but the Catholic church adopted it's own leader the Pope who was allowed to change things as often as he felt "led" to.

My church does not follow any denomination, it sticks to what is in the Bible, and I think that is the best way. The Bible is our only place to see God's word, and our church believe in it.

Our church has nothing to do with the pope, George Wya, the Church of England or Catholicism, but everything to do with Christ and the Bible.

Tradition and trends do not come before the Word of God, IMHO.

I think our church is what Catholicism was like before it was corrupted over the centuries, by the introduction of the pope and new books inserted in their bible.

We haven't been diluted or corrupted by man's opinion.

:unsure: Im a bit confused now then, because I have always understood that St Peter the Apsotle was the 1st ever Pope (AD32 - AD67).......so IF Jesus's birth was the start of AD, then St Peter was Pope when Jesus was 32 (wasnt Jesus in his 30's at he time he was crucified......if my memory serves me well??? Its been a loooooooooooooooong time)

So may I ask what Chuch you belong to Hugh - I understand if you choose not to answer this!

And how do you KNOW that your churches Bible hasnt been changed in anyway over the Centuries?