Is it possible to forgive someone who has hurt your feelings. slighted you or bullied you?

We often "make friends" with our enemies in order to bring about a truce, sometimes an easy one sometimes an uneasy one. But deep down in our hearts have we forgiven them or are we just doing it to make life easier and more pleasant?

Or is forgiveness too pompous a word? Perhaps forgetting or ignoring may be the right word.

.....and for clarification this is to do with the board NOT real life!

Only when the remorse has been sincere and (if possible) the damage put right.

Having said that, sometimes there's a choice in the question of whether to feel slighted or bullied in the first place. Sometimes it takes two.

Oh goodness, I didn't see the edit re this being specifically about the board! Maybe my post should just read: 'no comment'?

On the subject of having a tactical pretend friendship with an 'enemy' -I think this is usually pointless, if not destructive & has little to do with being more 'pleasant' and more to do with being a hypocrite. If it can't be sincere, it's better avoided imo.

If this subject is with specific regard to the MB, where does "forgiveness" come into it?

If this is harking back to old grudges, perhaps it is time to move on from all that. This is an online discussion forum- it is not real life.

If people don't feel able to forgive the misdemeanours of the past - well, that is their prerogative. Not everyone is a saintly type.

But lets not pretend that this place has a greater signficance than it does. No matter what is said here, no real damage is done in the greater scheme of things.

To answer this question more fully, no, I don't think you truly "forgive" if you are calling a truce with someone. Of course, for the sake of a quiet life, sometimes that truce is necessary, but it really has nothing at all to do with forgiveness. It more to do with maintaining the status quo.

This is done in real life too!

The impression I have from being here long enough to see some major falling outs, is that despite their use of words like 'time to move on', 'it's only a mb' *etc, people do tend to remember old grievances.

*not referring to kh's posts - these are stock phrases that have appeared time and time again.

For me, I don't have a problem in forgiving as long as the other person does their part as well. If they continue to stay cold and distant to me, then I guess I would hold a bit of a grudge. Even then I guess I just get on with things and not worry about it.

I don't agree with saying it's only an MB etc etc. Just because it's a cyber community does not mean that your feelings do not transfer over to it. There are relationships here, none of which you could have if you did not bring feelings into it.

If I didn't speak to everyone who had at some point hurt my feelings, bullied me, or had a go at me, I wouldn't be speaking to anybody at all. I imagine the same could be said for everyone.

I don't really know what "forgiveness" means to other people - to me it just means putting it to one side. Most of us don't forget other people's hurtful behaviour, but it doesn't mean we have to let it affect the way we treat them.

Of course a sincere and genuine apology DOES go a long way towards making you feel warmer to someone who has upset you.

The trouble with MB's is the same as the trouble with workmates. You are more or less "forced" to be with the same people, no matter what you may think of them. By that, I mean you can't control who posts on the Board.

So if people really annoy you, all you can do is either (a) continue being civil towards them or (b) ignore them. Of course you COULD spend the whole time slagging off everything they posted, but that would be pretty immature and probably get you barred from the Board.

I think I am with Tigger on this one.

However, I suspect it is all down to perception. If someone wrongs you and they say sorry - it is your perception of their apology to know whether to forgive or not. If you really beleive that they are sincere in that apology - then I would not have a problem. However, if it were lip service for the sake of 'keeping face' or putting on a front, then things maybe different.

Ceri makes an interesting point about forgiveness - 'putting it to one side'. I can understand what she means. But Ceri - if it is just sitting there to one side and never truly goes away - what does it do?? Does it remain always quietly. Does it perhaps pop up now and again and say 'still here you know?' or does it fade from memory until the person does a similar thing??

I think the Christian view of 'forgiveness' is just that - you forgive the person or persons for causing harm in someway to you. It is a very brave thing to do to forgive, it means putting your full trust back in that person or persons - and that is an act courage IMO.

I can only speak for myself here, but I can honestly say that there is nothing that has ever been said or done to me on this MB that I cannot truly forgive.

I agree with Flip about perception being important, and we have to accept that just as remorse is subject to preception so is the slight or hurt that caused offence in the first place. What I have learned is that it's only too easy to misinterpret a comment or read meaning into a post that was probably never intended, but ultimately we are responsible for our own responses, we can't change what people do or say to us (real or imagined), but we can control the way in which we respond to that and it's pretty much up to us how much we let that bother us, determine our responses or colour our view of the people concerned.

Perhaps it's less about 'forgiveness' as Ceri says and more about putting differences to one side. Grudge holding takes an awful lot of energy after all and I'd much rather accept that I'm probably wrong and get on with it than stew over old rows and disagreements.

I reckon life really is too short for all that.

Edit: This is of course not to imply that I think that other people's hurt is not real or genuinely felt, it's just that I think that when we don't 'forgive' or put aside those differences, we are hurting ourselves as much as anyone else.

If I think what someone said can be misinterpreted, I am more than happy to let them clarify the situation.

I was referring more to those occasions on which people are just downright rude or offensive. I wouldn't "forgive" that type of behaviour in the normal sense of the word, as the person obviously intended to cause hurt; but I would forget about it as I would not want to waste my energy on reliving unpleasant memories again and again.

However, the memory is indeed still buried there, so if the person "re-offends" you are likely to consider their actions in light of their previous misdemeanours!! :laugh:

I know I have kind of said this already, but I'm actually having a hard time accepting that people take the things that are said here so seriously that they feel that "forgiveness" might be necessary. I genuinely do not feel the same way about comments directed to me here, as I would about the same comments if they were directed to me in real life.

I'm not trying to suggest that emotional reactions don't play a part on the forum - I know that people are just as likely to be hurt by a nasty comment made here as they would be to receive a nasty comment in real life. But surely the impact is considerably lesser here? It certainly is for me! In the grand scheme of things I am relatively unaffected by insults levelled at me online. Of course they bug me for 10 minutes or so, but then I switch off my PC and forget about them until the next time I log on. I don't carry those insults around with me, ponder them, or allow them to make me feel insecure.

Insults levelled in real life have a much worse impact on me though. Depending on the circumstances, I might perhaps allow those insults to get me down. I might dwell on them and feel really bad about it. I have received insults in real life that have crushed me. I've also had my fair share of online insults, but I can honestly say that I have not been significantly affected by them beyond the initial irritation at reading the comment.

So, despite the fact that I have crossed swords with several people on the forum over the years, and been the recipient of all manner of sleights, I honestly don't feel that anyone has ever said or done anything to me which warrants anything as noble as "forgiveness".

The thing is, I'm big enough to admit that for every insult or nasty comment that I have received online, I have most likely said or done something that provoked that reaction. I do tend to give as good as I get, and that fact alone makes me culpable. Why should I feel bitter about comment which I have provoked? Why should I feel that "forgiveness" is in order? It takes two to tango, and most of the time, I'm every bit as bad as my adversary.

With regard to apologies though, I have to say that I have rarely made an apology that I didn't really mean, although there was one ocassion where I did apologise purely to end a row for the sake of a quiet life. But, as to apologies that I have received from others, I have always taken them completely at face value and assumed that they are genuinely regretful - no matter who is apologising or what my history is with them. But, I do think that apologies are sometimes misinterpreted. If I apologise for a comment that I have made to someone, I am apologising for that comment. The fact that I regret the comment does not mean that I feel differently towards the person I am apologising to, and if I challenge them at a later date on a different point, it does not make my previous apology in any way insincere. All that seems obvious to me, but I've sometimes wondered whether people realise this.

I know I have kind of said this already, but I'm actually having a hard time accepting that people take the things that are said here so seriously that they feel that "forgiveness" might be necessary. I genuinely do not feel the same way about comments directed to me here, as I would about the same comments if they were directed to me in real life.


I find the apology and forgiveness when there has been problems hard. I find the word forgiveness hard, I mean it is SO emotive and loaded. I think banning people for anything less than lawbreaking hard. Since we are not a utopia then forgiveness and acceptence on the MB is directed by who?

There is a fascinating article in the readers digest on forgivness and reconciliation of feelings and the effect on health. Listening to a young woman who lost a parent in the Brighton Bomb she met a bomber and it freed her. I have always said I would rather see society move forward and understand rather than retribute. Sanction is one thing restoration is another. Allowing restoration and change is a wonderful gift and one that can only help the victim also heal.

Karen, that was an excellent and thought-provoking post.

Even if I can't find it in myself to be as objective as you, and I know I become angry or hurt by things said on this MB, I feel what you so eloquently expressed would be a good mantra to try and live by as far as this community is concerned.

Sometimes when things become overwhelming you need to step back and put the whole thing into perspective. IMO you've done that very well.

I agree Nox that karenH has taken a step back to look at the topic, but I think she is describing how-things-ought-to-be rather than things-that-have-really-happened.

I think it's worth distinguishing between the two. I don't go along with pretending that things are not as they are or were.

Can you every TRULY forgive?
Yes. And it's a good skill to master.

I don't go along with the general views about forgiveness: "I'll forgive them if they're sorry", "I'll forgive them by pretending it never happened" etc. For me, forgiveness is an absolutely critical part of life, and it is completely independant of the person I am forgiving.

Yes there are some things I find harder to forgive than others, but I make it a rule that I will forgive everything, regardless of the attitude of the person causing the offence. I do this partly for reasons of my belief system, but also because it keeps me sane.

I do not have to keep a record of all the different things that people have done to upset me. I do not have to analyse their behaviour towards me or mine towards them in the light of past offences. I do not have to chew on past grievances or allow myself to become bitter.

And that last word is the most important one for me: "bitter". I believe that unforgiveness is inescapably linked to bitterness. I believe that bitterness is stressful and psychologically unhealthy. So it is in my best selfish interests to forgive people, whether or not they deserve it. In turn, I hope that people will forgive me for things I do, even though I may not "deserve" to be forgiven.

But before you presume that I am some kind of doormat, I do learn from past experiences. I choose to let them make me wiser/more informed. Better rather than bitter. If someone betrays a confidence, I forgive them, but don't give them any more confidences.

Yes, you can truly forgive. Forgiving is the first step to walking free of pain.

I'm actually having a hard time accepting that people take the things that are said here so seriously that they feel that "forgiveness" might be necessary.I'm amazed at this! Surely a deliberate personal attack is going to upset people and it's a bit of a shame if a poster reckons that because it's all via the impersonal medium of a PC and forum that it somehow doesn't matter?

I'm guessing this is probably the more so for those of you who have met because the person becomes more 'real'. But it would be an unimaginative person who, even without meeting, couldn't think that people are people and have feelings.

I don't go along with the general views about forgiveness: "I'll forgive them if they're sorry", "I'll forgive them by pretending it never happened" etc. For me, forgiveness is an absolutely critical part of life, and it is completely independant of the person I am forgiving.What about:

if the unconditional forgiveness results in the person repeatedly abusing you in some way? -or-


if the abuse/damage is not directed at you, but someone dear to you and is clearly harming them, eg partner, child?

What about:

if the unconditional forgiveness results in the person repeatedly abusing you in some way? -or-


if the abuse/damage is not directed at you, but someone dear to you and is clearly harming them, eg partner, child?

I am guessing that it would not matter. I know this question was aimed at Blink, but I can see exactly where he is coming from. I aim to be as forgiving, but have not yet made it. So I think it would be irrelevant if someone continued to abuse, or the abuse or misdemeanour was aimed at other close people. The overall premise is to forgive, as God and Jesus did, without prejudice.

I agree about the bitterness thing though. My father did a dreadful thing to us [me Mum and sister] and not one of us can forgive him. I do try to, I know my Mum and sister will never do it. But I know that I feel extremely bitter about it and I detest feeling like this - so I try and try to forgive him -even though he is dead. One day I will do it.

N0 -while I agree that protracted bitterness is nearly always very destructive to s/he who feels it -and should be resisted -I don't agree that it is possible, or even morally right, to strive to forgive everything.

Essentially, forgiveness is a two-way thing. And there are some very bad/wrong things which do not ever merit forgiveness. If you set the unrealistic standard of beatifical forgivingness then you set yourself up for guilt and distress when a real excess of maliciousness/badness hits you.

This doesn't mean you can't resolve it however, or need to seek revenge/suffer bitterness indefinitely. Maybe it's more of a matter of sealing it up in a 'lessons learned' mental pigeonhole and simply moving on?

My post above resulted in an interesting PM exchange. I am extracting some of my thoughts from that, to add some clarification. Firstly though, let me respond to this point:

if the unconditional forgiveness results in the person repeatedly abusing you in some way?
Just because I forgive people, it does not mean that I trust them. This is what I meant about becoming "wiser". It is a serious mistake to think that forgiving someone means letting them continue to abuse you.

My other thoughts:

In the worst case scenario, forgiveness is for my benefit, not my adversary's. Perhaps different people define forgiveness differently. I would certainly not use it as a synonym for "forgetting". For me, it is all about my inner reaction to the offence - choosing not to dwell on it; not harbouring a grudge; getting past the upset, etc.

That is not to say that I would be happy to allow someone who committed a crime against my family, to go unpunished. I believe strongly in consequences flowing from actions. If you burgle my house, I will forgive you, but you can still expect to go to prison since this is the consequence that society demands.

Furthermore, I would not equate forgiveness with trust. I may forgive someone without ever trusting them again. But to me, forgiveness admits at least the possibility that trust may be re-established.

Compare: "I will never forgive my husband for cheating on me" with "I forgive my husband for cheating on me, but he has a lot of work to do before I will ever trust him again".

That is where I am coming from, I guess. I believe in second chances for everyone. And of course in the above scenario, trust could only be re-established if penitence was evident. So I do think that remorse is a key factor in allowing trust to grow again.

Thing is, there are some things which are impossible to forgive and some people who frankly don't deserve it -we are all human and have our limits. If your goal is to always forgive regardless, then when you reach that limit and cannot, your distress is likely to be compounded by feelings of guilt and inadequacy at not being the saintly person you wish to be......... And indeed, if the motive to forgive is more about your own preservation than that of your adversary, then it's not the sincere gesture it perhaps ought to be to matter, and in some cases could be used as a sanctimonious weapon with the subtext: 'oh i am a much greater person than you, because although you are bad in doing <hateful thing> i forgive you, and thus our common friends will know i am a saint and you a mere worm'.

Trust is far more important than forgiveness, as this is the cornerstone on which a future relationship depends -I know out of the two that which I'd want to have. To use the example in the post above, if I were unfaithful to my partner I would not want to be forgiven and don't think it would help me -that would be unendurable and demean the wrongness of the infidelity -but I would want to regain the trust and only that would really restore the relationship.

And non-forgiveness is not necessarily destructive and involves bitterness/revenge -I agree that's usually counterproductive. It can instead be a powerful motivator to either protect people or create circumstances where the problem doesn't arise in the future, not just for yourself, but for many. Essentially the energy of the inability to 'let go' of something which was wrongly done to you can can be channelled into something good, perhaps more good, than forgiveness.

But I'm talking major and malicious misdemeanors here -the ups and downs of general interacting with others is hardly on that scale.

I'm confused now.

Say if someone has hurt you badly in the past and you thought you were over it, and then something happens to rekindle those hurt feelings. Does that mean you have not forgiven, just because it can still hurt?

That's what I meant about grudgle holding in my post. Is it grudge holding? Because this particular person I can welcome in my home, spend time with happily, but when something is said it can bring back hurt feelings. Does that mean that I am not forgiving? :huh:

Putting aside for one moment Lucy's point of whether we really ought to forgive, and assuming for the moment that it is better to forgive, I would like to ask someone (eg Blink) who is advocating it, what does forgiving actually mean , and how do you go about it?

I would like to ask someone (eg Blink) who is advocating it, what does forgiving actually mean , and how do you go about it?
May I have a stab at this??

I wonder if it is partly to do with understanding. eg if someone knocked you over in their car, because they couldn't be bothered to have their car taxed and tested, and the brakes failed. Then it is not difficult to understand how and why they knocked you over, they were driving an unsafe car, the brakes failed and the car knocked you over. Could you forgive this?? I could, I doubt I would ever forget it but I can understand why it happened. And it was not malicious.

I think defining forgiveness has to be the starting point. That's why I said earlier that to me, it means putting it to one side, i.e. not allowing myself to get bitter and upset about it any more.

I think what Blink is advocating is something a bit more far reaching than that, where you totally let go of any feelings of resentment in order to free yourself of lasting bitterness, but remember the lesson you have learned nonetheless.

I do think that kind of forgiveness is powerful as it does release you of a lot of negativity. I cannot pretend to be as good at this as Blink, because I not. I can still be quite thin skinned and sometimes I allow things to get to me more than is probably healthy. I think part of the problem is that I have quite low self esteem and often don't do what is "best" for me.

However I do the best I can, and that is why I tend to bury my feelings of hatred and still learn the lesson from what has happened. I realise "burying" them probably isn't the best way, but as SF says, how do you achieve the other type of forgiveness? I think it involves a long process of introspection and getting to know yourself, and caring about yourself enough to do it.

That sort of thing doesn't happen overnight unfortunately, particularly if you come from a background where you have been abused/traumatised and may find accepting and looking after yourself quite hard.

Its this word forgiveness I can't find the readers digest I think it was September or Octobers issue.
Forgivness frees up the bitter feelings of those who feel an injustice has been done to them. The best forgiveness is when the perptrator of the action acknowledges how they have hurt. The brighton IRA bomber who met with the daughter of one of his victims could not say he would not have done the same again at that time . Only he would not now. The victim in turn can see the whole structure of events that led to this action.
In a dictatorship there must be common forgiveness of the past to move on to democracy. Often the same families and classes are going for leadership under another system.
I watched Michael Jacksons mind last night. I have met pedophiles and as I am old I now hear of some men I knew as some boys, who are now adults and sadly sex offenders. Michael Jacksons police mug shot is stark. A prison sentence will in one image conjour up for me the claasic victim perpetrator cycle....in his roots how far back does the crime go, back to slavery? yes and probably before that in Africa and a feudal chief. How do you stop it. How do you forgive and who? Will if he is truly guilty ever be able to acknowledge his crime and bbe treated. If not he must stay in the other never never land for the rest of his life.
An MB world is just as real at conveying emotions and that is why people have (regrettablyIMO) been banned. This is going to sound wierd but i could forgive easier the untreated unsupported psychopath that hurt a loved one than an irresponsible idiot with a dangerous car on the road. Maybe I over service my car but as it would be avoidable I could not forgive myself so I am obsessive about servicing and maintaining. Lack of support for psychopath is a society problem and I could not balme the individual.

I'm amazed at this! Surely a deliberate personal attack is going to upset people and it's a bit of a shame if a poster reckons that because it's all via the impersonal medium of a PC and forum that it somehow doesn't matter?

As you quoted me in your post, I feel that I want to respond to this.

Who said anything about a "deliberate personal attack?". I referred to conflict, which doesn't necessarily equate to the same thing at all.

I also didn't say that such things "don't matter"......they create bad feeling on the MB and I conceded quite early on in my post that such things of course do provoke a reaction.

What I actually said was that such things do not (for me) have the same significance or impact as a similar attack would have in real life. I mean God, that's obvious, isn't it? I wasn't suggesting that I'm not bothered, but what I was saying is that I'm nowhere near bothered to the same extent. Especially if an apology has been forthcoming.

I also said something akin to "you reap what you sow". On the subject of "deliberate personal attacks", I've had one or two of those in my time on the MB. I've probably delivered one or two as well. So who is worse? The person who is attacking me, or me for responding in a similar vein. Or vice versa? Personally, I'm inclined to think that we would both be equally culpable.

And that's what it really comes down to on the online "forgiveness" issue. There are possible exceptions to this, but if most people here who have ever been involved in any kind of online conflict were completely honest with themselves, they would have to concede that - whatever their reasons - they have possibly encouraged and perpetrated the conflict, even if only by responding in kind to a nasty comment.

So who, in that situation, should be in the lofty position of "forgiver"? The person who made the first comment? The person who responded with an even nastier one? The person who didn't say anything at all, but reacted by sending a wholeload of PM's to people slagging the other person off behind the scenes? In an ideal online world, they'd all "forgive" each other and move on, but thats not likely to happen. Failing that, best not to take the whole thing to such heart that it requires anything as noble as forgiveness, but instead take each day as it comes and see if you can manage a civil online conversation with the git who insulted you yesterday.

I know the forgiveness question was in relation to the MB, but as some posts have talked about it in general terms... Margaret Hassan's family have described her murder as 'unforgivable'. How would someone who advocates forgiveness persuade them to forgive her executioners?

karenh:

An MB is an extension of 'real life' and not an alternative, given that the contributors are real people. When people have met, the boundaries are even more blurred. So of course it's possible to cause distress on an MB -just the same as it is by a letter, a phone call, an email, a text, or a face to face contact -it's all a means of communicating. The other people are not technological hallucinations -they live and feel.

I have to say I find your post a little strange. You seem to be suggesting that it's OK to get nasty online if you feel someone else has. So 'two wrongs' is fine by you, and powering off the PC erases everything until the next spat? If this is what you mean, then I wouldn't agree.

SF:

The death of Hassan is appallingly sad and it's hard not to lose faith in humanity that such a thing could have happened. Of course it is unforgiveable.

karenh:

I have to say I find your post a little strange. You seem to be suggesting that it's OK to get nasty online if you feel someone else has. So 'two wrongs' is fine by you, and powering off the PC erases everything until the next spat? If this is what you mean, then I wouldn't agree.


No - that isn't what I meant to suggest at all and to be honest, I'm really not sure that I can be any clearer about my meaning that I have been already without making another 4 paragraph post which would probably still be challenged on some point. It is just MY perspective - I don't necessarily expect anyone else to agree with it.

I'm sorry if you find my opinion on the matter strange. To me, it makes perfect sense. I'm comfortable with it and its what keeps me sane on the forum.

You're welcome to have your own opinion on the matter! It just seemed odd that your posts suggested that you felt MB insulting should not really be much of a problem to the recipient:No matter what is said here, no real damage is done in the greater scheme of things.andI'm actually having a hard time accepting that people take the things that are said here so seriously that they feel that "forgiveness" might be necessary.and your later post did rather suggest a combative competitive approach to MB insulting, although maybe I have misinterpreted it!

I agree entirely, each to their own.

It just seemed odd that your posts suggested that you felt MB insulting should not really be much of a problem to the recipient:

Well, that's not exactly what I said really. I'm pretty sure that somewhere in at least one of my posts I stated that people can be, of course, bothered and upset by online insults. The point I was making though was that in comparison to a similar real life event the level of impact is greatly reduced. We have a choice online about how much contact we allow ourselves with hostile posters, and it is a choice that is often not available with people who are hostile towards you in real life. Therein, I think, lies the difference.

and your later post did rather suggest a combative competitive approach to MB insulting, although maybe I have misinterpreted it!

I didn't mean to suggest or imply that a combatitive,competitive approach to online insulting is a good or acceptable thing either. It is certainly not the way that communications online should be handled, but that doesn't stop it happening! Some posters are, or have been, openly hostile towards other posters on a regular basis, and sometimes, those other posters respond in kind. This might not be desirable, but it is quite natural. And as this is a thread about "forgiveness" I'd made the obvious assumption that people would only feel the need to "forgive" hostile communications, which is why I've focussed my comments on those kind of posts.

But, I didn't mean to suggest that this is the way that thing should be- but it is the way they are on ocassion. And that being the case, I guess the point I was making is that the whole thing shouldn't be taken so seriously that we carry around negative feelings about it.

This is probably easier said than done if you are actually in the midst of an online conflict with someone else, and my perspective on the whole subject of "online forgiveness" has undoubtedly changed over the years I've been a member. There have been times when I took the whole thing to heart much more than I do these days. This change in perspective does not make me "right". Neither does it make me dishonest. But it does make me happier with my membership here.

I find online insults every bit as upsetting as those from anywhere else. The fact that the insulter is unseen doesn't make it better to me at all.

You are obviously not forced to post here, but equally if you enjoy the contact you have, you are going to be miserable if you feel you can't come on here because you are being bullied in some way, shape or form.

Not everyone is as thin skinned as I am, so they may not be similarly affected. However I think anyone that posts on here needs to recognise that some of us do find such things very upsetting. There's nothing wrong in having different opinions, but sometimes I think people throw insults and make an argument personal when it really isn't necessary.

I find online insults every bit as upsetting as those from anywhere else. The fact that the insulter is unseen doesn't make it better to me at all.

You are obviously not forced to post here, but equally if you enjoy the contact you have, you are going to be miserable if you feel you can't come on here because you are being bullied in some way, shape or form.

Not everyone is as thin skinned as I am, so they may not be similarly affected. However I think anyone that posts on here needs to recognise that some of us do find such things very upsetting. There's nothing wrong in having different opinions, but sometimes I think people throw insults and make an argument personal when it really isn't necessary.

Yeah - that's fair comment I think. I guess individual perspectives on the subject do come down to different personalities.

I know the forgiveness question was in relation to the MB, but as some posts have talked about it in general terms... Margaret Hassan's family have described her murder as 'unforgivable'. How would someone who advocates forgiveness persuade them to forgive her executioners?
Personally I would not even attempt to persuade them. I would however remain convinced that it is the best approach for them. And no I don't think that any offence is unforgivable.

To say that something is unforgiveable suggests that one is subject to an external locus of control - focussed on events that happen to us. I prefer an internal locus of control, which involves a deliberate internal response to those events, and a choice about the extent to which we let them affect us.

Pretty sure any psychologist will tell you that the internal locus approach is healthiest.

Anyway, to call something "unforgiveable" suggests that we are powerless to forgive it. This cannot be the case. Countless people have forgiven similar offences - this is well documented. I accept the testimony of those people.

But don't confuse "I couldn't forgive that" with "that is unforgiveable". There is a huge difference.

No - that isn't what I meant to suggest at all and to be honest, I'm really not sure that I can be any clearer about my meaning that I have been already without making another 4 paragraph post which would probably still be challenged on some point. It is just MY perspective - I don't necessarily expect anyone else to agree with it.

I'm sorry if you find my opinion on the matter strange. To me, it makes perfect sense. I'm comfortable with it and its what keeps me sane on the forum.
Controversy, controversy.......Do things never change around here??

Karens' points are IMHO perfectly sensible and rational. I don't see a "common decency clause" pop up when I log on and gawd knows theres enough modding and site rules scattered about.

Apart from one or two, every one here wears long trousers and as such should be prepared with the reallity of the big bad world. Sometimes not everyone out here is as peachy and sweet as you!

(this post is not aimed at any specific individual - it's purely an observational summary of several posts - It may be off topic but Hey - GET OVER IT)


Blink....
But don't confuse "I couldn't forgive that" with "that is unforgiveable". There is a huge difference
Good point but using your own viewpoint "unforgiveable" can't exist? If I read what you are saying correctly, there is always the option and therefore it can't strictly "UN" possible?!?! (if you know what I mean)

Hellow slipper please keep postying, i am saying posty-ing to make it sound funner. I always liked your posties. Are you a new name I'm still trying to figure them all out.

using your own viewpoint "unforgiveable" can't exist? If I read what you are saying correctly, there is always the option and therefore it can't strictly "UN" possible?!?! (if you know what I mean)
Not necessarily. I can't offhand think of anything I would consider unforgiveable, but there might be something! As I've said before, forgiving someone doesn't mean letting them get away with it. Even the most heinous of crimes can be forgiven - punished and forgiven.

To use two popular specifics when discussing this topic: neither the Jewish holocaust nor paedophilic activity are unforgiveable in my view. Inexcusable and abhorant and probably worthy of the death penalty, yes, but not unforgiveable.

Not necessarily. I can't offhand think of anything I would consider unforgiveable. As I've said before, forgiving someone doesn't mean letting them get away with it. Even the most heinous of crimes can be forgiven - punished and forgiven.

To use two popular specifics when discussing this topic: neither the Jewish holocaust nor paedophilic activity are unforgiveable in my view. Inexcusable and abhorant and probably worthy of the death penalty, yes, but not unforgiveable.
You seem to contradict yourself there but I get your gist. (both examples are henious crimes)

Thing is...can you ever include the consideration of mental health issues etc...(obviously not for genocide as that includes duplicity and therefore odds of extreme unlikelyness) I'm in no means condoning...just being controversial

The death of Hassan is appallingly sad
Agreed.

and it's hard not to lose faith in humanity that such a thing could have happened.
Really? Far worse things happen every day. We just don't get to hear about them.

Of course it is unforgiveable.
I will prove you wrong by forgiving the terrorists.

Ah - perhaps you mean that you would find it perfectly understandable if the relatives can't forgive the terrorists? Well so would I, but that merely makes it "understandable not to forgive", not "unforgiveable".

You seem to contradict yourself there
Where? I hate that... :sad:

I've never been good at forgiving. Then again, I don't excommunicate people without a very good reason. Well, not usually anyway. I don't buy into the argument that you need to forgive people in order to heal yourself. You don't need to forgive them, you need to forgive yourself for being enough of an idiot to trust in the first place.

If we're talking about small everyday squabbles, then I do think it's a good idea to settle them as quickly and cleanly as possible. But if we're talking about serious wrongs... well, no, I don't see the point in putting more pressure on yourself to act in a certain way, to be generous to someone who has been terribly selfish. If they want to apologise, that's great, you can accept that, but you don't need to forgive them, you just need to move forward and forget about them if you can.

you need to forgive yourself for being enough of an idiot to trust in the first place.
Yikes.

........

I don't think of myself as "idiotic" if my trust turns out to be misplaced. For one thing, to err is human. I don't just mean myself, I mean others too. Sometimes people are going to let you down, just as you will let them down, because that little thing called life gets in the way of all your good intentions. Sometimes you get swept away by circumstance, or something happens that makes you feel sad, angry, resentful, or you have a bad day, or there's some awful chain reaction, that means you end up behaving in a way your pals did not desire. Or maybe you just needed time to yourself, or perhaps you were abused as a child and it left you with low self esteem and you know you SHOULDN'T do x or y but you can't seem to break the cycle...the list goes on and on. We all make mistakes and we are all sometimes going to be a "let down" in the eyes of others.

Secondly, maybe your expectations of that person were too high to start with. It's possible.

And lastly, you can't possibly know whether your relationship with someone will work out, whoever they are. Just because Option A didn't work, it doesn't mean Option B would have been better. You don't have a crystal ball, and you DON'T KNOW.

So don't torture yourself - it's not worth it.

So don't torture yourself - it's not worth it.

It's so hard not to.

But why is it hard? You just need to be rational about it. OK, so you got run over by a bus on your way to work and now you're in hospital. Who says if you'd stayed at home you wouldn't have fallen asleep and left a cigarette in the ashtray and burned the house down? So you trusted someone and they let you down - who's to say if you had not trusted them, you would have been happier?

By not taking risks, you can guarantee failure. OK you won't get hurt, but you certainly won't develop either. All relationships bring SOMETHING of value to us - if you think one didn't, it's your attitude you need to change. There were always SOME happy moments. If you just closet yourself away and don't trust anyone, you can guarantee you'll have a lonely, bitter and empty life.

Life is all about loving and receiving love. You can't do either if you don't trust people, and you certainly won't have much love to give if you can't forgive yourself for having a bad time sometimes.

As I said, people are not infallible. They ****** up too. Very few people intend to hurt others, however dubious their motivations may seem to us.

Maybe they're too busy hating everyone they ever trusted who let them down, to be open to loving somebody else.

For me, there are some things that I am able to forgive, and others that I may be unable to forgive, or would find it much harder to do. Ultimately, how "forgiveable" something is or not is dependent on how much it affects me and I'd guess it is the same for most people. But peoples tolerance's are different - certain things which bother others greatly, may not have much impact on me, whereas I may be bothered by things that other people would brush off in a second.

E.g. I think that if my husband was unfaithful I could forgive his adultery under certain circumstances. For other people though, it is very much a "one strike and your out" policy.

I get Blinks argument that there is nothing that is "unforgiveable", and technically he is right. As long as someone is capable of forgiving the deed, then it cannot be accurately classed as "unforgiveable". Usually though, I think the word "unforgiveable" is used descriptively rather than literally.

Just thinking about it now though, I'm not sure that anything has ever happend to me that I have been totally unable to forgive, although it may take time for that forgiveness to come. That's not to say that are things that I would never forgive - I'm sure there are - they just haven't happend to me. But, I generally find that no matter what the wrongdoing, there is usually a reason why it happend (as opposed to an excuse) and often once you know the reason, it is easier to rationalise and forgive. As Blink said earlier, I generally find that hanging onto the bitterness of a wrongdoing does you more harm than anyone else.

Forgiving a wrongdoing though doesn't necessarily mean returning to how things were previously. If a friend betrayed me in a way that hurt me badly, I may find that it would take some time for me to be able to forgive her for it, but generally there would come a point when I did. But, having forgiven her, it is unlikely that our friendship would revert to its former glory. In fact, we probably wouldn't be friends at all any more! The difference between forgiving her and not forgiving her would simply be that I no longer felt bitter about the event, and no longer wished her ill.

Isnt "unforgivable" just another incorrectly and over-used tabloid adjective?

I would tend to agree with Blink. Providing somebody is capable of forgiving something, surely it is not unforgivable.

I've never been good at forgiving. Then again, I don't excommunicate people without a very good reason. Well, not usually anyway. I don't buy into the argument that you need to forgive people in order to heal yourself. You don't need to forgive them, you need to forgive yourself for being enough of an idiot to trust in the first place.

If we're talking about small everyday squabbles, then I do think it's a good idea to settle them as quickly and cleanly as possible. But if we're talking about serious wrongs... well, no, I don't see the point in putting more pressure on yourself to act in a certain way, to be generous to someone who has been terribly selfish. If they want to apologise, that's great, you can accept that, but you don't need to forgive them, you just need to move forward and forget about them if you can.Nice to see you back Busty.:wave:
Drop me an e-mail/pm and let me know how your studies went, pretty please.

Just trawling through this old thread again and a question occurred to me: How can you tell if you've forgiven someone?

I mean, to my mind if you forgive someone for a past misdeed, it doesn't necesarily follow that you now like them and I think this causes confusion. People seem to think that unless you appear to have forgotten the past, and have started to like your former adversary, then forgiveness has not taken place. But is that correct?

E.g. I was once very badly hurt by someone I regarded as a good friend. The betrayal meant that I despised her for long time, but now I believe I have forgiven her. With the benefit of hindsight, I can see and understand why it happend and recognise the part I played in the ending of our friendship. Nowdays when I think of her, I feel no bitterness or anger (perhaps a little sadness). But mainly I just hope she is happy.

But....while I would probably stop and chat if I saw her on the street (and I'm not sure if I would), I would definitely not welcome her into my life as a friend again. Having been badly hurt by her in the past, I wouldn't trust her not to hurt me again and there is now an element to her personality which I really don't like.

Does this mean that I haven't actually forgiven her?

I think that sometimes you have to just let it go, for your own happiness, i think that if you don't forgive someone you become bitter and twisted, it's easier to just move on and forget about it.
I don't get on with my mother in law, we hate each other ,she is spiteful and try's to cause trouble between me and my hubby, i used to let her get to me but now i just let her get on with it,i let it slide right off my back, leave her waste all her energy on me, i'm the one whose smiling.

I don't know when a person knows when they have forgiven someone, for me i felt at peace with myself, and once i just let it go, i felt a sense of calm.

What an interesting thread - I hadn't seen it before!

I have mixed feelings about 'forgiveness' as I think it is a bit abused - a bit like its opposite - 'sorry'. Apologising and forgiving are very easy to say if they are not meant; however getting to a stage where you can use them and genuinely mean them is not so simple!

Karen, I think you can forgive, but not like or trust from that point on. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said you understood the circumstances. You understood, therefore you could see the situation from another viewpoint and could perhaps forgive the actions. But you have also learned something else about the person; found a few more of the jigsaw pieces that make up their personality, perhaps enough for you to decide that you and they are not compatible.

If that's the case, continuing the relationship at its previous levels would be knowingly dishonest. Your forgiveness however allows you to put it behind you and move on, wish them no harm, and behave in a civil manner if you come across them in public.

I suppose what I mean is that 'forgiveness' would be about a paticular action that affected me personally. That is in my gift to forgive. To forgive someone because I don't agree with their make-up or personality would be incredibly arrogant.

I think that sometimes you have to just let it go, for your own happiness, i think that if you don't forgive someone you become bitter and twisted, it's easier to just move on and forget about it.
I don't get on with my mother in law, we hate each other ,she is spiteful and try's to cause trouble between me and my hubby, i used to let her get to me but now i just let her get on with it,i let it slide right off my back, leave her waste all her energy on me, i'm the one whose smiling.

I don't know when a person knows when they have forgiven someone, for me i felt at peace with myself, and once i just let it go, i felt a sense of calm.

I totally and 100% agree with this (and have shared the same MIL experience) Bridge, you have summed up my thoughts on this :)

Gosh how topical this is - they asked this very question on the Heaven and Earth Show this morning to the panel.

There were some interesting answers - the vast majority of people said that they were actually unable to forgive! This I found a bit surprising. However, someone used the Terrorist Bombers as an example - so their replies may have been a bit skewed.

So is 'forgiveness' conditional, or on a scale? The worse the crime the more difficult it is to forgive? e.g. I will forgive you if you stand on my toe, but woe betide you if you poke me in the back.

Someone else made an interesting point and that was that they were able to forgive the person but not the crime/misdeed/wrong word? So for example they could forgive a person for bashing into them at a set of traffic lights, but could not forgive the 'act' itself. I can't quite get my head around that one though?? Any ideas?

Someone else made an interesting point and that was that they were able to forgive the person but not the crime/misdeed/wrong word? So for example they could forgive a person for bashing into them at a set of traffic lights, but could not forgive the 'act' itself. I can't quite get my head around that one though?? Any ideas?

Must admit, I don't quite get that one either. :wacko:

I think it might have something to do with loving a person but not what they do - like you can still love your son who is doing heroin but not love his actions.

I think it might have something to do with loving a person but not what they do - like you can still love your son who is doing heroin but not love his actions.

woah - that was easy sf - of course, it makes so much more sense now - thanks for that!:thumbsup: