Police have confirmed they have shot dead a man at Stockwell tube station.

Eyewitnesses say armed police chased a man onto a tube train and shot him five times at close range. :ohmy:

I have just been reading about this on the BBC News website, and it has report a witness said 'They pushed him to the floor, bundled on top of him and unloaded five shots into him'

I have just read this too ILS, it said that the man shot was running away from them on to the train.......blimey - its worrying isnt it!

BBC News 24 interviewed a passenger who said a foul smelling, smoking black bag had been left in the carriage next to his. Passengers from that carriage kicked the joining door open and piled into his carriage and then, when the train stopped at Stockwell, everyone legged it up the escalators and away. He didn't hang around to see anyone shot so couldn't comment on it.

'They pushed him to the floor, bundled on top of him and unloaded five shots into him'

Good. :thumbsup:

I hope this all stops soon. I hope that there isnt a continual programme of attack. How can Londoners or anyone else defend themselves against suicide bombers. I hope sane times (if they were ever sane) return again.

Daily Record:

THE callous Oval station bomber stood next to a woman with a baby as he carried his device.

Really cant get my head around their mentality.

Daily Record:



Really cant get my head around their mentality.

And maybe you shouldnt. Understand. How?

Good. :thumbsup:

Yup me too!!

isn't five shots excessive?


The report also said they did all the could to revive the man, calling an air ambulance. Why? after they'd just pumped him with FIVE shots? Surely he'd be more use alive for information purposes?

I'm sure I will get "shot" down by the vigilantes out there!

I don't know all the facts, but I don't see the sense in killing someone that they had clearly captured. Was it definite he was a suicide bomber?

I guess they had to shoot him if he was deemed a threat to public safety. I think the Police here had no choice. It probably was five shots as I am sure that more than one officer fired, and they would probably shoot more than one shot. It needs to be remembered, that the guy knew the score, he knew what would happen and I am pretty sure he was warned to stop or they'll shoot. From the Police point of view, it's either him dead or many more innocent people injured or killed. I don't like to see anyone killed under any circumstance, but I can understand why it happened in this case. It had to be an 'on the spot' situation.

isn't five shots excessive?


The report also said they did all the could to revive the man, calling an air ambulance. Why? after they'd just pumped him with FIVE shots? Surely he'd be more use alive for information purposes?

I'm sure I will get "shot" down by the vigilantes out there!

I'm with you Dol, 5 shots is a bit much especially when there were other civillians around. I know, I know this guy may have been carrying a bomb and he could have killed the civillians but couldn't they have just shot him in the legs to stop him running away and then give the paddles like they do in "24" and make him confess to everything! :ninja:

I'm sorry to laugh but the expression "give him the paddles" has just made me chuckle!


Sorry to be so flippant in such a serious thread!


Dolores creeps out of the door

Dol, the report I read says that police had a certain house under surveillance all last night after yesterday's failed attack. This morning that man left the house and, followed by some of the surveillance team, went to the tube station. The team were very suspicious about the way he was dressed, apparently. He was wearing a thick padded winter coat on a warm summer day.

I don't know what happened in the station, because I've read various different reports. One passenger told the BBC there had been another failed bomb attack in a carriage. Whether or not the man under surveillance was directly responsible for that I don't know, but an eye witness to his shooting told a Times reporter that he saw wires poking out from under the man's coat and something like an explosive belt around his body.

Obviously, the policeman who shot the guy will now be facing the usual investigation, which is a grim experience, and he has to live with his actions. But on the face of it, if that eye witness account is true, then I'm a lot happier about a terrorist being shot dead than I would be if he had taken dozens of innocent people with him by exploding his bomb. And if it took five bullets to stop him pressing his button, then that's what it took.

isn't five shots excessive?


The report also said they did all the could to revive the man, calling an air ambulance. Why? after they'd just pumped him with FIVE shots? Surely he'd be more use alive for information purposes?

I'm sure I will get "shot" down by the vigilantes out there!


I'm with you as well Dol.
As Bella as said, why not shoot him in the leg or something, make him immobile then at least they will have someone to question.

And to the fact that he could have killed innocent people, then how did the police know when the bomb was going to go off.
Shooting him dead, with 5 shots, surely doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to when a bomb goes off.
And if the police were following him from his home because he was acting suspiciously, why wait to capture him until he was in the underground where he was more of a threat to more people.
I do worry sometimes about the power that the police think they have.

Andrea, they chased him at full pelt to try and catch him before he could explode his bomb in a crowded carriage. He vaulted the turnstiles and made it to the train before they brought him down. As for "when a bomb goes off" - if it's a suicide bomber with his thumb on the button, it goes off whenever he decides to set it off. How's that for power to worry about?

That terrorist was going to die. His decision. Fortunately he wasn't permitted to murder other people while he did it.

The Police really had to make a fast decision, and in these type of cases I'm afraid, it's either shoot to kill or innocent people may die. If they had just shot him in the legs, he would then still be capable of setting the bomb off. The Police IMO had no other choice at this point in time.

isn't five shots excessive?


The report also said they did all the could to revive the man, calling an air ambulance. Why? after they'd just pumped him with FIVE shots? Surely he'd be more use alive for information purposes?



And I'm sure he could have gone out with 5lbs of explosives strapped to his body instead of 10lbs and killed just as many innocent people, but hey, you've got to be certain of getting the job done, havent you?

Just watching the news and it explained why they had to shoot him in the head and it was reasons that Tigger has just posted. If they shoot to kill (in the head) it is immediate death and then (obviously) they are powerless to set off the bomb.

They were talking to an Israelli expert who said that the Police had no alternative but this action and the Police had got advice from Irsael police/marksmen. Let's not forget the sort of thing that happened London happens in Israel/Iraq/Palestine on a daily basis. I hope that it is not going to happen in London. :(

So do I Bella. I live quite close to London, and I feel now that some of my basic freedom of travelling by transport to the City has been taken away. I know I still have the choice to go, but leisurely trips for me at the moment are just not going to happen. It's sad, and I really feel for those that have no choice but to travel to work each day using the transport system. It must be quite stressful for them and their loved ones. :sad:

It must be quite stressful for them and their loved ones.

Perversely enough, the tubes and busses are alot less crowded at the moment.

So at least you can sit in comfort while you're dealing with the stress. :ninja:

I don't know if I'm being niave here, but weren't the police already on top of him when they shot him. Surely they had hold of his hands to stop any detonation going off.

And is there any reports of whether he had any explosives on him or not, yet?

I don't want to take away any feelings of the terror that is being caused by these people, and I am not on their side, I just have a problem with police mainly.

Sorry to all you who have family members who are or have been involved with the police:ninja:

Five shots isn't excessive - they had to make sure this person's entire nervous system was shut down instantly which basically means head shots and lots of them.

This is what they are taught to do in these extreme circumstances. They are using low velocity rounds so that the bullets won't pass through the victim and hit anyone else. And in this case, they were firing downwards (so it would seem) so ok they might damage the floor of a tube train but at least other passengers were not put at risk.

But as always, the police are caught between a rock and a hard place.

The same hand-wringers who complain about this "shoot to kill" policy would have gone bonkers if the police had failed to stop this person and it subsequently turned out he had explosives strapped to his body and killed a dozen people by blowing himself up. Or that he was part of a bombing team and helping to organise more terrorist outrages.

This is a war - literally. The crazy fundamentalists it looks like are behind these attacks believe they are fighting a religious war against a nation of infidels. They are quite prepared to kill themselves, fellow Muslims, or anyone else who happens to be within blast range. They don't care who they wipe out.

Faced with this sort of attacker, it's hardly surprising that the police may have to resort to harsh tactics.

It's extremely hard to restrain someone completely in those circumstances, Andrea. Almost impossible when dealing with a lunatic hellbent on murder through self-destruction and wired to go bang.

I have just been reading about this on the BBC News website, and it has report a witness said 'They pushed him to the floor, bundled on top of him and unloaded five shots into him'


It's horrible but what else could they do? i mean he could have taken a hell of a lot of innocent people out with him if he was carrying a bomb. Is'nt it better for one evil terriost to die than several innocent good people?

what else could they do?

I don't think there was anything else they could do, under the circumstances.

I feel safer knowing the police are not messing about with these bombers. And how else do you stop someone that's decided they are going to die anyway?

With the amount of publicity at the moment, I can't see the police doing this unless they were 100% sure they were right in their suspicions. Nor would they have allowed events to unfold if they thought there was more information to be got out of him.

I also feel that there is some sort of 'intelligence' message in this action, but for me it's simply one bomber less at no cost to innocent lives. Job well done.

Couldn't agree more, Fee. I read that as the team were chasing him they received a communication that they were to prevent him from entering a train "at all costs". I read also that he attempted to grab and hold a passenger to himself as he stepped into the train. Job done, indeed.

Police admitted on Saturday they had shot dead the wrong man as they hunted for four men wanted for failed bomb attacks on London's transport system.

Ooops!

Well, IMO he wasn't running because he was late for work...

Hmmm, I kind of assumed in my initial post that this man was in fact a terrorist.

If he isn't it's a bloody tragedy and a bloody big cock up.

Hmmm, I kind of assumed in my initial post that this man was in fact a terrorist.

Unfortunately, I think this is also what the police assumed to be true.

Unfortunately, I think this is also what the police assumed to be true.


No sh*t Sherlock? :glare:

Hmmm, I kind of assumed in my initial post that this man was in fact a terrorist.

If he isn't it's a bloody tragedy and a bloody big cock up.

When I was listening to the witnesses talking about it some described him as looking like a frightened rabbit others a cornered fox.
Turns out he's brazillan. Wonder if there were language barrier issues.
Turns out a lot of people were running that day. The police also chased the driver of that tube who did a runner (who knows why- fear?) they also held a gun to his head before he was able to tell them he was the driver!
Desperate times, desperate measures and all that, but it's incredibily sad when an innocent person is killed and I don't think it makes it less wrong that one died but imagine if he had been a terrorist it could have been more.

I'm inclined to think that this whole scenario is a serious indictation that our Metropoiltan law enforcement community is panicking. Five shots in the back of the head of an unarmed man??????

Its a bit of a worry. Both for Londoners, and also for anyone of a swarthy complexion travelling about London without a good command of the English language.

I wonder whether this man wold have run from the police had the police been wearing uniform. The fact that they were plain clothed must've had an impact on his reaction. I mean, most people would run if confronted by what looked like "civilians" brandising guns.

Its a tradgedy, but even more worrying, its a serous indication that the police have not got a grip on the situation.

It's a fine balancing act isn't it?
Do you implement your orders to shoot to kill (in this instance it seems almost an execution) if you believe someone a danger to the public.
Or do you wait until after the event?

Apparently he was an electrician, hence the wires sticking out of his coat, but he did jump the barrier and jump onto the train.

It all hinges on what the police said when challenging him, and whether he understood it?
But if he didn't understand English - why was he working in London?
It's a good case perhaps for immigrants to have compulsory English lessons when they want to work here.

The investigation may reveal further details, that is, if it is made public in full. When I first heard of this, I thought if the police unloaded 5 shots then they must have had good reason. A mistake on their part is the cost of a man's life. I feel sorry for the police as they are under pressure to act and prevent further attacks and if they get it wrong, the cost is an innocent mans life and the loss of public confidence. No one who is not involved in the terrorist attacks should be killed like this but I have a feeling, in this war, there will be more innocent casualties on either side.

At this stage we can speculate all we like, fact is we don't know the full story.

At this stage we can speculate all we like, fact is we don't know the full story.

Speculation is all that is around. Full story may or may not emerge. It is one way to assuage concerns to talk/write about a scary event from multiple perspectives.

I'm inclined to think that this whole scenario is a serious indictation that our Metropoiltan law enforcement community is panicking... its a serous indication that the police have not got a grip on the situation.

But (from todays BBC site):

Mr Menezes had come out of a house in Tulse Hill, south London, which had been under police surveillance because of a suspected link to Thursday's attempted bombings.

Police said Mr Menezes' clothing and behaviour added to their suspicions.

After leaving the house he caught a bus to Stockwell Tube, where officers told him to stop.

He then ran down an escalator and tried to board a train before being shot,


In view of what has been happening I think they had to take a calculated risk in what they did. It turned out wrong but if he had been wired up to explode and they hadn't done what they did it would have turned out even more wrong. Tha's the calculated risk involved. To me this wasn't a sign that they are panicking. And the fact that they now have specific houses tied into the bombing indicates that they actually do have a reasonable grip on the situation.

I can't get my head around him running when ordered to stop by the police. Apparently he's been here for a couple of years and his cousin (I think, or some other relative, who is also working here) says his English was good. No doubt we'll find out why he ran when the police do, because they need to settle this as quickly as possible.

But (from todays BBC site):

Mr Menezes had come out of a house in Tulse Hill, south London, which had been under police surveillance because of a suspected link to Thursday's attempted bombings.

Police said Mr Menezes' clothing and behaviour added to their suspicions.

After leaving the house he caught a bus to Stockwell Tube, where officers told him to stop.

He then ran down an escalator and tried to board a train before being shot,


In view of what has been happening I think they had to take a calculated risk in what they did. It turned out wrong but if he had been wired up to explode and they hadn't done what they did it would have turned out even more wrong. Tha's the calculated risk involved. To me this wasn't a sign that they are panicking. And the fact that they now have specific houses tied into the bombing indicates that they actually do have a reasonable grip on the situation.

Well, yeah - that's fair enough. In the light of what you have posted above, I'd probably agree with you. I didn't know that when I made my post yesterday. Neither did I know that he'd been living and working in the UK for a couple of years (and therefore presumably spoke fairly good English).

One member of his family is quoted today as saying he (the victim)spoke "excellent" English.

I read that they were plain clothes policemen who ordered him stop etc.
He probably thought he was in danger...maybe that's why he ran.
??

The latest news from the BBC News Website is that he had an out of date visa.

Ah. That'll be it, then. Sad and futile.

It always angers me big time that people will whinge whatever way the police go! They are really stuck between a rock and a hard place.

The Shoot to Kill Policy is the only option when dealing with suicide bombers - and very tragically on this occasion it went wrong, but this really has to be put down to a set of tragic circumstances, that culminated in a man unconnected with the bombings being shot dead.

The Police Force don't panic. Although each officer is not infallable, the training and strategies that are in place preclude Panic - when firearms are in used.

Under the circumstances the choices that were made are wholly understandable and right.

I agree completely, Flip.

Heard on the news today that he was actually shot 8 times:shocking:

Heard on the news today that he was actually shot 8 times:shocking:

Now that IS excessive!

The whole episode leaves a horrible taste in my mouth for the world we live in today. All those soldiers who have died in wars for us to live like this must be turning in their graves.

The whole episode leaves a horrible taste in my mouth for the world we live in today. All those soldiers who have died in wars for us to live like this must be turning in their graves.

Hmmm - that's food for thought Dol. Very poignant.

This article by David Aaronovitch speaks sensibly about the incident, in my opinion:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,171-1708035,00.html

Now that IS excessive!

The whole episode leaves a horrible taste in my mouth for the world we live in today. All those soldiers who have died in wars for us to live like this must be turning in their graves.

Dol - if 8 is excessive, how many shots should it have taken?

Also, re the old soldiers - wouldn't those of them who had been blown into pieces think that the police should do what they are doing - trying to stop civilians being blown into pieces?

Dol - if 8 is excessive, how many shots should it have taken?

Also, re the old soldiers - wouldn't those of them who had been blown into pieces think that the police should do what they are doing - trying to stop civilians being blown into pieces?

whatever! :glare:

This article by David Aaronovitch speaks sensibly about the incident, in my opinion:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,171-1708035,00.html

Cheers Dab. A fair and sensible analysis of victimhood, the dangers of speculation and knee-jerk reaction from the media.

The whole episode leaves a horrible taste in my mouth for the world we live in today. All those soldiers who have died in wars for us to live like this must be turning in their graves.


I think that's spot on, that said, they were probably saying that during Hitlers rise about WWI, unfortunately it politicians whom think of themselves that allow us to get into these messes.

Was 8 shots excessive, who knows, the fact is the guys dead and that is what they intended whether it be through one shot, eight or twelve, I agree with the principle of the decision and of that policy.

If this chappy had indeed been a bomber then those Policemen would be lined up by now with our cheesy grinned PM issuing the medals. The fact that he was not a bomber means that those Policemen now have to undergo a lengthy enquiry (which granted they would have had to have done anyway).

My only concern and I make no judgement because there are too many unknowns, is that if he were a suspect, why was he allowed to get so close to the tube station in the first place. This to me is a point of more concern.

My only concern and I make no judgement because there are too many unknowns, is that if he were a suspect, why was he allowed to get so close to the tube station in the first place. This to me is a point of more concern.

Thsi did cross my mind too. There were also reports that he had boarded a bus prior to getting to the tube station - again I don't know if this was true or not??

But supposing he did not get on the bus, and he did indeed walk from the address under observation direct to the tube station, the only thing I can think of is that he had to be seen to be posing a direct threat to the transport system.

If they had stopped him prior to this, and he was carrying explosives - the Shoot to Kill would have been less imperative? As there were no people to injure. Bit like the offences of Theft and Going Equipped - obviously being caught in the act of theft or after the event with evidence is more serious than Going Equipped - where the intention may be there. I don't know? I wasn't that cop thankfully!

Gawd..what an awful tragedy for all concerned.I feels so sorry for the family of that poor man shot dead,as I do for all the bomb victims.RIP.
But this family have to endure not only the loss of their son, but a slur on his name as well.The police got the wrong man, they tried to cover it up.
They lied and implied that he ran when challenged, and said they HAD to shoot him because his clothing was bulky and could have concealed a bomb.
Turns out that this is not the case.I don't know what the answer is, I really don't.The officer who shot this man will have to live with it for the rest of his life, which wont' be easy.But 8 bullets in an innocent man's head!!!!
:-(
I wonder will this be the end of the shoot to kill policy...................

I have always defended the actions of our police-force when it appears they are getting in grilling, in this case however it has just been a huge catalogue of errors. It must as you say Aondeag, be devestating for Jean-Charles's family. It seems horrendous that he never got the chance to declare his innocence. I appreciate he could have been a suicide bomber, but the fact that he was NOT formally identified is just beyond belief. Why was there only ONE policeman recording the video at the block of flats? This is just one question of many that need to be answered.

When this first came out, it said that he was wearing bulky clothes, jumped the barrier and ran when the Police shouted STOP! This is now all lies!! The team in question must have known pretty early on that it was a mistake and that things didn't tie up, it now seems that they have made up a story to back-up their error. I cannot imagine the horror of what the other passengers must have witnessed.

Well, it appears that the original police statement was a bunch of lies.

The guy wasn't wearing a bulky jacket.

He didn't run away.

He didn't vault a barrier.

In other words, all the things which perhaps mitigated the fact that the police shot an innocent man were complete fabrication. How can they possibly now excuse the fact that they shot an innocent man and then LIED about the circumstances under which the tragedy occured.

The blatant fact of the matter is that the SO19 boys paniced, and then their colleagues rushed around to cover up for them.

Its the kinda thing which gave the Met a bad name in the first place.

Sorry to say all this. I am usually very supportive of the Police and often feel strongly that they come under unneccesary criticism (often from left wing, middle class t0ssers who think it is "trendy"). But really, this is pretty inexcusable and will only serve to give credibility to the often unwarranted criticsm the Forces have had in the past.

Karen - your post more or less sums up what I was thinking. If this had been a British citizen shot in another country just think of the outcry there would be.

Karen - your post more or less sums up what I was thinking. If this had been a British citizen shot in another country just think of the outcry there would be.

Exactly Rob, our Government would be demanding answers! It is probably being deemed that Brazil is not "that an important" country to give answers to, I just wonder what the situation would be if the innocent man was American. The sad thing is, is that Jean-Charles came from a poor family in a poor country I only hope that they get the justice that they so rightly deserve!

Also the other question that has remained unanswered is why if the police thought he was a suicide bomber.........why was he allowed to even get near the train station? It would have taken him seconds to set the bomb off, he should have been detained long before he got to Stockwell.

Karen - your post more or less sums up what I was thinking. If this had been a British citizen shot in another country just think of the outcry there would be.


...or a Brazillian shot in Brazil by the Brazillian police? it probably wouldn't have even made the national newspapers over there, where this is a common occurence. I'm sure I read somewhere that 600 Brazillians have been shot dead by the police so far this year, I doubt whether they all deserved to be shot dead.

The police overreacted and shot a man innocent of terrorism, that is hard to forgive, but the subsequent cover up from the highest echeleons of the Force is unforgiveable. (imo)

our Government would be demanding answers! It is probably being deemed that Brazil is not "that an important" country to give answers to,

I really don't think that is the case. The media attention makes it THE most important thing in the news at the moment, imo.