If you don't want to here my or anyone else's theories, look away now.

I've done a quick synopsis of the first epidode, btw, for those who missed it.

So far we have a Catherine and a Mary and a religious connection. Will the two girls also have saints names, I wonder?

Is there a Saint Isobel, or did she actually kill herself, as the inquest found?

Yes I agree, Patsy. I think the girls will be all named after martyred female Saints (hence the SAVE ME).... and will have died in the same manner in which the Saints died?

Like it, Pandy, like it. I get one little theory, but didn't take it that far.

Did you like my synopsis, btw. Thought you would be proud.

Hey chaps - I'm new to this message board but Messiah so excited me last night i just had to chat to some like-minded people!

I like your theory - I'm following up on the Dante connection myself at the moment. Christ's Harrowing of Hell was a popular tale in mediaeval times, the purpose of which was to rescue the souls of the patriarchy. I'm thinking that perhaps the murders are punishment for the sins of the fathers/husbands/parents etc. McCardle's murder mimics that found in Dante's Vestibule of Hell, whereby the souls are tormented by hornets and wasps "until their cheeks ran with blood". These poor sods are the neutrals - people who sat on the fence in life, refusing to make a choice at times that mattered. Perhaps a punishment on the mother who didn't speak up about the abuse? Or on the father in some way? Mind you, McCardle could be being punished herself for not resisting the urge of lust, although the punishments for them are slightly different.

Clare however died peacefully; circle 1 of hell is where the limbo souls reside. They're not tormented as such (hence the peaceful death?) but are suspended, supposedly suffering from the absence of god. However, in contrast to the neutrals/refusers, these lot didn't have the opportunity to choose god - they were unbaptsized etc. This is why they don't suffer the same as in other levels of hell. Is there some connection with Clare and her husband's reaction to their daughters death? Can't remember how she died myself.

Now in the 9th circle of hell are the souls of people who have sown discord during their lifetime. The Schismatics who divided families, churches, nations etc. They were cuts to shreds and the like - possibly strung up I can't remember. Perhaps the final two girls in ep1 caused a family rift, or were two friends/sisters who themselves had been torn apart through parental folly etc? Not sure about that one, see what happens tonight!

Finally, if the Isobel connection isn't a red herring, I wonder if she fulfils the circles of incontinence - a place for those who have not deliberately chosen sin but who have done nothing to prevent it - the sins of self-indulgence, weakness of will etc. Dante describes them as "down-dropping through the air, impelled by love." Perhaps Isobel did nothing to prevent her seduction by that dodgy lecturer, and when she found out that McCardle was pregnant by him, she couldn't cope and so threw herself off the building. This could result in, Se7en stylee, the revenge by her father; circle 5 of hell contains the wrathful.

I reckon there will definitely be a male victim or two - it's the overarching theme of either retribution or soul saving ("save me") that the murderer's interested in, rather than the victims per se. We know that the church gets involved somehow, and there's a group of sinners called the simoniacs - simony being "a deliberate intention of buying or selling for a temporal price such things as are spiritual of annexed unto spirituals". They were burnt I think.

Ho hum, I really need to get out more on such a fine day as this...

My tv magazine actually states what the murders are a recreation of....


but I won't spoil it for you :D

My tv magazine actually states what the murders are a recreation of....




:laugh:
Nice one ILS! I love it when peeps post their theories and then somone else posts the same theory word for word :whistling what would we do without google.
But hey Pats I loved your theory for a minute there I thought I was going to be next.
How come this is Messiah IV?
I don't remember Messiah 3, or was that last year and the first two were shown together

Is that what stephjw has done then? Am I being just a little bit naieve(sp)? Did it really say all that in the TV mag?

Is that what stephjw has done then? Am I being just a little bit naieve(sp)? Did it really say all that in the TV mag?

No! I wasn't suggesting that post, but it does happen quite a bit, loads on doctor who and desperate housewives

Why would anyone be bothered to do that? Just to take some extremely short-lived and undeserved glory? I was going to say. That was rather a lot more info than I would envisage being in a TV mag. I shall now congratulate stephjw on being spot-on with the Dante theory. I love that painting, too; it's so gorey and harrowing and nasty.

Mr P reckons it's Jack, Isobel's father. I think that's a bit too obvious.

Mr P reckons it's Jack, Isobel's father. I think that's a bit too obvious.

He's a bit too preoccupied, but in previous ones it always turns out to be someone who has been involved in the investigation and they sometime get a mixture of these looks :shocking: :ninja: but you have to watch really closley to see it, good job i've recorded them on DVD and can do frame by frame analysis- and yep, Tim is definitely guilty of these two looks

He's a bit too preoccupied, but in previous ones it always turns out to be someone who has been involved in the investigation and they sometime get a mixture of these looks :shocking: :ninja: but you have to watch really closley to see it, good job i've recorded them on DVD and can do frame by frame analysis- and yep, Tim is definitely guilty of these two looks

Is Tim the young guy working with Rachel? If so then I think it might be him, not really sure why just process of elimation?! It could be that he done the autopasy on Isobel and maybe was in love with her, so he taking revenge in the worst way possible to sinners.

btw - it also gave an indication that Dante was a theory in the Scotsman magazine at the weekend too.

My tv magazine actually states what the murders are a recreation of....


but I won't spoil it for you :D

LOL Ils ... looks like me and Pats got it wrong, but at least we didnt cheat by looking at the tv guide. Its a good programme though eh? Im luvin it....

And Pats - excellent synopsis there my sweet - Im sure it was much appreciated by those who had missed the first episode.

I think the murderer is the defrocked Priest who was in the Soup Kitchen - he looked a bit furtive.....

And isnt Isobel's Dad (Hugo Speer) bluddy lush ? :naughty:

LOL Ils ... looks like me and Pats got it wrong, but at least we didnt cheat by looking at the tv guide

I didn't cheat either. I actually wish that they hadn't put it in the TV guide as when I got the guide last Tuesday and read through it, it spoilt it for me before the show had even started. To be honest I would rather not have known.

I think the murderer is the defrocked Priest who was in the Soup Kitchen - he looked a bit furtive

I agree, I think it is him too.

I agree, I think it is him too.

Nah - too obvious :shocking:

Nah - too obvious :shocking:

Who do you think it is Bonnie?

Who do you think it is Bonnie?

I dont know :mellow: . Im not very good at sussing out the bad men, and im normally always wrong at the end anyway. I just think the way that X-priest bloke looked manacingly out the window was too obvious for this kinda show, but i might well be wrong.

I didn't cheat either. I actually wish that they hadn't put it in the TV guide as when I got the guide last Tuesday and read through it, it spoilt it for me before the show had even started. To be honest I would rather not have known.



. Yes, a bit weird that, putting it in the tv guide - I mean, theres telling you about a programme and telling you, isnt there? .... I bet a lot of folk were annoyed at the spoiler. I forgot to get a tv guide at the supermarket on friday - good job eh?

So far the suspects are : defrocked priest, smarmy uni tutor or Catherines abusive father.

I would imagine the killer would have to be strong, but Mrs Smarmy Tutor looks hefty enough... wouldnt that be weird, if it were a female serial killer? They are so usually male...

Incidentally, why havent they investigated where the killer got the bees from? They are such a specialised thing to have - you can hardly go to Bees R Us can you? (or have I missed some vital bit of this and thats been explained?)

Yes, a bit weird that, putting it in the tv guide - I mean, theres telling you about a programme and telling you, isnt there? .... I bet a lot of folk were annoyed at the spoiler.




Well exactly :ranting:

I know a bit of what happens tonight too, just by reading the TV Guide and it does spoil it knowing things in advance.

I've got a bit lost with all the chat, but suffice to say that after I'd suggested to my other half that the murders in the trailer seemed to resemble Dante, this was confirmed by a line on my digibox preview blurb thingy. Which is why I though it was worth following up :)

Sounds like it was a bit of a waste of my time if someone had already written it all up in the Scotsman or wherever! Though it does beg the questin already raised - why on earth would a reviewer outline the (quite elaborate) plot in a review? Seems a bit unfair.

Oh, and I was off a bit on the 2 girls having the affair - should've known the murderer would just go down the levels one at a time rather than skipping around them all. And maybe I was being a tad overcomplicated with my presumption that the murderer was punishing the parents/patriarchs etc rather than just the victims. Got a bit carried away with the whole "harrowing" thing.

Well exactly :ranting:

I know a bit of what happens tonight too, just by reading the TV Guide and it does spoil it knowing things in advance.

Can't you just stop reading when you see they're about to give the plot away? Have to say I have a friend who if he has seen a film you are about to see, he simply has to start telling you the plot. I've learnt now to stop him as soon as he starts, I just don't want to hear it!

So far the suspects are : defrocked priest, smarmy uni tutor or Catherines abusive father.

I reckon it might be that Tim bloke - I don't think he was in Messiah III, but he seems to have a small but vital role in this one - no reason surely unless he's the murderer? Plus it would put him in an ideal situation to fiddle the evidence such as the DNA of the baby etc, especially if he wants to point the finger at the tutor (whom Isobel probably loved instead of him). But then wasn't the killer in MIII one of their team as well? And a woman? Would be a shame if it was another member of the team again. If so, they really need to sort out their selection criteria....

I reckon the defrocked priest knows something about the motive behind the priest's murder but didn't do it, whilst the uni tutor will play a role in the whole treachery/vengeance cycle, probably involving Isobel's dad (can't remember his name).

Incidentally, why havent they investigated where the killer got the bees from? They are such a specialised thing to have - you can hardly go to Bees R Us can you? (or have I missed some vital bit of this and thats been explained?)

Good point - Red dropped the ball there somewhat! That's going to bug (ha ha) me now - lazy screenplay-ing!

Can't you just stop reading when you see they're about to give the plot away? Have to say I have a friend who if he has seen a film you are about to see, he simply has to start telling you the plot. I've learnt now to stop him as soon as he starts, I just don't want to hear it!

It is a bit difficult when the bit giving the plot away is the first line of the synopsis SF. But unlike your friend I would never reveal what I have read to another unless they asked me to, as although the surprise is spoilt for me, I have no desire to spoil it for others.

Can't you just stop reading when you see they're about to give the plot away? Have to say I have a friend who if he has seen a film you are about to see, he simply has to start telling you the plot. I've learnt now to stop him as soon as he starts, I just don't want to hear it!

My sister is like this but she tells you the plotline of every film she sees and I often say to her that I would rather not know as I might watch the film in the future, but she just prattles on anyway! Think I might book her in with a hearing specialist! She is like this about everything though, once she starts there is no stopping her.

I do think it is unfair of the writers of TV magazines to write about the plot or who is next to be killed (as they mention this in my magazine). I don't mind about the soaps though as you generally know what is going to happen through TV programmes or features in the paper. And I sometimes miss some episodes so you can just catch up by reading the TV mag, but the plot should not be given away for one off dramas.

Mags and newspapers etc should have a spoiler warning, like they do in film magazines, so you know when they're about to ruin things for you. In the 12 word summary I read for tonight's programme they managed to tell me who dies! How dare they ruin it with 12 paltry words!!!

Oh, and annoyingly I won't get to see tonights ep until the weekend. Which also means I'll have to avoid reading this board until then! Darn those prior engagements...

Mags and newspapers etc should have a spoiler warning, like they do in film magazines, so you know when they're about to ruin things for you. In the 12 word summary I read for tonight's programme they managed to tell me who dies! How dare they ruin it with 12 paltry words!!!

Oh, and annoyingly I won't get to see tonights ep until the weekend. Which also means I'll have to avoid reading this board until then! Darn those prior engagements...

Stephjw - don't avoid the board, just avoid this thread! There are so many other threads you can put your input! ;)

I reckon it might be that Tim bloke - I don't think he was in Messiah III, but he seems to have a small but vital role in this one - no reason surely unless he's the murderer? Plus it would put him in an ideal situation to fiddle the evidence such as the DNA of the baby etc, especially if he wants to point the finger at the tutor (whom Isobel probably loved instead of him).
Ah yes TIM :shocking: :ninja: He also crarried out the PM on Isobel, so she could have been a warm up, and knowing that her mother couldn't do the PM.........

But then wasn't the killer in MIII one of their team as well? And a woman?
That was messiah I and yeah he was part of the team, revenge on Red for doing a hit and run on him as a child.

last year the killer was the creepy doctor in the hospital

I never watched the two previous programmes, but i am enjoying this.
Maybe i am getting too old now, but it seems a little rushed, just as i am getting into it it's over!
I am assuming tonight's episode will be the last?

It is the final part tonight, Secrets.

So is Tim the young guy who is helping Rachel with the post-mortems?

:shocking: I've had to change channel - it's the crem scene...

What a wuss.
:laugh:

Did anyone spot it? I didn't. No sirrreeee. Makes sense though. That's why she came back to work so quickly, obviously. How did she have the strengh to hoist those two girls up though. And the fat Italian, how did she lug him around? Too many unanswered questions.

We sort of got it when we saw Issys brother with the book but up to that time we were going with Tim!

Did anyone spot it? I didn't. No sirrreeee. Makes sense though. That's why she came back to work so quickly, obviously. How did she have the strengh to hoist those two girls up though. And the fat Italian, how did she lug him around? Too many unanswered questions.

She didn't hoist them up though - she backed the van up to the bridge and dropped them over.:)

edited to add - she probably waved a sausage at the Italian and said "come on boy." lol.

I didn't even get it when Danny, the brother had the book! I still thought it was Tim - it was good the way they made out that Tim was the suspect, him offering Rachel a lift and having that menacing look. I did flicker at one point and thought that it may have been the brother. What a crap dectective I would make! :laugh:

I had my eyes over my face at the cremation scene too, that was pretty shocking!

It was brilliant though, sometimes BBC just get it right!

How did she have the strengh to hoist those two girls up though. And the fat Italian, how did she lug him around? Too many unanswered questions.

I wondered the exact same thing. It would of taken tremendous strength to lug them about - and even to throw them off a bridge. I mean ....... i couldnt of done it, and she was about 3 stone lighter than me, and 2 foot shorter.

Blummin good though and had me gripped to the very end.

Did anyone spot it? I didn't. No sirrreeee. Makes sense though. That's why she came back to work so quickly, obviously. How did she have the strengh to hoist those two girls up though. And the fat Italian, how did she lug him around? Too many unanswered questions.

Ooh Im a bit smug, cos I thought the twist would be that it was a woman serial killer, but I had no idea it would be her !!!

The scene in the Crematorium was horrible.

The acting from Rachel at the end was superb.

The scene in the Crematorium was horrible.

God, wasnt it just. I said to Mr.B that apart from being buried alive there cant really be anything worse than knowing you are about to be frazzled alive.

The acting from Rachel at the end was superb.

She was good wasn't she? What has she been in before, I recall her being in something where she also played a bit of a psycho but can't remember what.

Poor Jack though, losing your daughter is one thing but to lose your wife in the same spot and know that she is the Dante serial killer will just tip him over the edge!! :shocking:


from Bonnieapart from being buried alive there cant really be anything worse than knowing you are about to be frazzled alive.

And especially when you can't scream, oh it was awful!

God, wasnt it just. I said to Mr.B that apart from being buried alive there cant really be anything worse than knowing you are about to be frazzled alive.

I felt sick. Evil, pure bloody evil. that poor woman. I know it wasn't real but couldn't they have saved at least one?

Watched all three back to back today and had everything sussed bar exactly who did it....I had Jacks (Hugo Speer) son as the culprit for all the reasons that his mum did it! :wallbash: It's not often I get caught out so this was a goodun as far as I'm concerned! Well done to the writers! :thumbsup:

I did question a few things though.....

1) Where did she get all the bees from...if I was a detective thats one of the first things I would ask after the first murder..... :mellow:

2) Would the coffin bearers not have noticed the extra weight in the coffin and surely if the woman was wiggling enough they would have felt movement or heard some knocking..... :mellow:

3) The glutony guy ate poo and mud but where did it say in Dantes work that he was eaten by dogs (I think I may have missed that bit so please if it was mentioned tell me!) :blush:

Watched all three back to back today and had everything sussed bar exactly who did it....I had Jacks (Hugo Speer) son as the culprit for all the reasons that his mum did it! :wallbash: It's not often I get caught out so this was a goodun as far as I'm concerned! Well done to the writers! :thumbsup:



3) The glutony guy ate poo and mud but where did it say in Dantes work that he was eaten by dogs (I think I may have missed that bit so please if it was mentioned tell me!) :blush:

Here, the Gluttons run around the pit eternally trying to avoid the sharp claws of the three-headed guardian of this Circle, Cerberus.

Not exactly three headed, but the reference to avoiding the sharp claws would work.

Here, the Gluttons run around the pit eternally trying to avoid the sharp claws of the three-headed guardian of this Circle, Cerberus.

Not exactly three headed, but the reference to avoiding the sharp claws would work.

Cheers Secrets...I thought there had to be a reason for the dog but at the same time, obviously, missed that there was.. :blush:

This is back on tonight at 9pm, ITV - but im not sure if Ken Stott will be in it much. I think he takes a bit of a back seat. I only really watched for Ken (am i alone in finding him incredibly sexy). Im not sure i will enjoy it without him .... but im willing to give it a try.

This is back on tonight at 9pm, ITV - but im not sure if Ken Stott will be in it much. I think he takes a bit of a back seat. I only really watched for Ken (am i alone in finding him incredibly sexy). Im not sure i will enjoy it without him .... but im willing to give it a try.

Bonny hun, you've got the Ken Stott bit right but he's actually playing DI Rebus in Rebus, not The Messiah.

It's adapted from the book Resurrection Men and I wonder how they will cock this one up. It's on the same time as Ugly Betty but would still like to watch it as it is filmed in Edinburgh but they are so different from the books.

Bonny hun, you've got the Ken Stott bit right but he's actually playing DI Rebus in Rebus, not The Messiah.

It's adapted from the book Resurrection Men and I wonder how they will cock this one up. It's on the same time as Ugly Betty but would still like to watch it as it is filmed in Edinburgh but they are so different from the books.

OOOpppps :laugh: As soon as i got home, and saw the show advertised I knew i had picked the wrong Ken Stott show :huh:

I recorded Ugly Betty and watched Rebus ..... I enjoyed it. Although my husband guessed who murdered who, and why Rebus was 'sent back to school' within the first 3 minutes - which REALLY riles me :mad2: