Child killer Ian Huntley has been attacked with boiling water by another inmate at the high security Wakefield Prison, in West Yorkshire.

Grimsby-born Huntley was attacked on Wednesday on the health care wing of the jail, which houses some of the most dangerous prisoners in the country.

(source BBC Website)


I think I can be confident in saying that it is a widely held belief that Ian Huntley is an evil evil man who deserves never to see the light of day ever again.

But my question regarding the above attack is what kind of hierachy to prisoners have? Obviously most, if not all of these men are dangerous criminals who have ruined lives or taken lives and yet they obviously see (or at least those who attacked Huntley) that their evil crime is less than Huntleys.

there seems to be a hierarchy in jail doesn't there, with child abusers at the bottom and always liable to attack. Seems to make the others feel that they're not so bad after all in comparison!

edit: I've just removed something I said about he crime - then I realised it was Ian Brady I was talking about!

Oh dear what a shame :laugh: unfortunately he will not be scarred and he is still alive unlike those little girls.

Oh dear what a shame :laugh: unfortunately he will not be scarred and he is still alive unlike those little girls.

yes but the point is what makes those evil people (evil cos they committed a crime and were in the dangerous criminals wing) who did this (a) right and (b) better than him?

A murderer is a murderer is a murderer in my book. But they seem to have a points system for who they killed and how they killed them. Just seems bizzarre to me.

And for the record I think it's wicked to be pleased that someone got deliberately scalded with boiling water. Surely being shocked and horrified that criminals are so wicked to each other is what makes us better people?

And for the record I think it's wicked to be pleased that someone got deliberately scalded with boiling water. Surely being shocked and horrified that criminals are so wicked to each other is what makes us better people?

I do kind of agree with Dol here as Angela Cannings got abused and boiling water thrown over her for killing her babies, now we all know that she was innocent. Yes, with Huntley it is different as he did it and I do sometimes think what goes around comes around and he does deserve everything he gets but it does annoy me that as Dol has says that it is people who have murdered or killed and are murderers just the same. Yes, it was tragic that Holly & Jessica were killed, tragic that they were little girls but it is just as tragic if an adult who is someone's dad, husband, brother is murdered too.

Child killer Ian Huntley has been attacked with boiling water by another inmate at the high security Wakefield Prison, in West Yorkshire.

Grimsby-born Huntley was attacked on Wednesday on the health care wing of the jail, which houses some of the most dangerous prisoners in the country.

(source BBC Website)


I think I can be confident in saying that it is a widely held belief that Ian Huntley is an evil evil man who deserves never to see the light of day ever again.

But my question regarding the above attack is what kind of hierachy to prisoners have? Obviously most, if not all of these men are dangerous criminals who have ruined lives or taken lives and yet they obviously see (or at least those who attacked Huntley) that their evil crime is less than Huntleys.

I also wonder what role the prison wardens play in this. Do they have their own opinions as to who, or whose crime, is the most evil and therefore turn a blind eye to such behaviour where they feel it is deserved?

yes but the point is what makes those evil people (evil cos they committed a crime and were in the dangerous criminals wing) who did this (a) right and (b) better than him?

A murderer is a murderer is a murderer in my book. But they seem to have a points system for who they killed and how they killed them. Just seems bizzarre to me.

And for the record I think it's wicked to be pleased that someone got deliberately scalded with boiling water. Surely being shocked and horrified that criminals are so wicked to each other is what makes us better people?

OK so I am wicked but I stand by what I said. I believe he shouldn't have been there in the first place as he should have been quietly put to sleep.

There will always be a heirarchy in prison as people want to believe someone else is worse than them and I do think the warders turn a blind eye to the goings on.

My first post was a gut reaction as it involved children but I woul feel the same if it was someone who had for instance beaten an old lady to death.

If it can be proved beyond any doubt I support the death penalty, sorry that has gone off topic a bit.

If it can be proved beyond any doubt I support the death penalty, sorry that has gone off topic a bit.

yes the death penalty is entirely different from the skewed take on justice that his cell mates had!

I don't think death sentence question is off topic here Maz ... it's perfectly valid and I think in the Ian Huntley and Ian Brady cases it always arises.

btw - I also strongly disagree with the death sentence, I'm afraid! Can't put it into words very well, but I just disagree with it. When I say that people often try to make me change my mind by saying "what if it was your child" ... the question is fair enough and I still don't think I'd want the death penalty. In my grief and hurt I'd want to rip the basterd limb from limb with my bear hands!!! But that's not justice that's something else.

I always thought that the likes of Huntley were put on Rule 43 - the sectioned off part of prison were peadophiles, child killers and policemen and prison officers are put!! Yes policemen [and prison officers] are put amongst the scum of the earth even if it is for something minor [that obviously involves a prison sentance].

And they are put there to 'protect' them from the general and 'every day' murderer, criminal etc.

I am sure their are heirarchies, in fact I know there are heirarchies - but is this any different to 'real life'??

I am sure their are heirarchies, in fact I know there are heirarchies - but is this any different to 'real life'??

no it's not I suppose.

I just find it strange that in this case those that did this to Huntley obviously thought their evils were lesser than his.

I think they do it to gain notoriety as the one to mete out their version of justice. They have all lived with violence so it probably comes easy to them they don't have the same sort of stopping mechanism that the rest of us have.

While the criminals who did this were probably no better, I hope it was agony for him!

Apparently peadophiles and child killers are seen as the lowest of the low in prison, and the prisoners think they deserve everything they get. Murdering anyone is a hideous crime - but when it comes to kids the prisioners hate them with a vengence. They do feel that they are pond scum, and should be wiped from the earth (i heard this on a TV program a while back).

Im not in favour of the death penalty BUT i do begrudge the thousands of pounds it takes to keep one prisoner in prison for life (or 10 years !!!). Plus a lot of them seem to live the life of Reily. I know they have lost their freedom, which must be hard to bear (not that i have any sympathy) - but they have nice meals, a TV, playstations, magazines, a library etc to make the days bearable. It doesnt seem like a HUGE punishment to me.

If something happened to one of my nearest and dearest i would want to lynch the ******* - and i dont think having them locked in a cosy cell would make me feel that justice had been done.

I would rather have the men work - and work hard like they used to (I dont know if they still do) in America. The chain gangs would use pick axes to create an access through mountains for rail lines etc .... Give 'em some hard manual labour, thats what i say.

Im not in favour of the death penalty BUT i do begrudge the thousands of pounds it takes to keep one prisoner in prison for life (or 10 years !!!). Plus a lot of them seem to live the life of Reily. I know they have lost their freedom, which must be hard to bear (not that i have any sympathy) - but they have nice meals, a TV, playstations, magazines, a library etc to make the days bearable. It doesnt seem like a HUGE punishment to me.

Agree.....Murderers (1st degree) should be full term of sentance and no privilages

Manslaughterers should get reviews and subsequent privilages

I would rather have the men work - and work hard like they used to (I dont know if they still do) in America. The chain gangs would use pick axes to create an access through mountains for rail lines etc .... Give 'em some hard manual labour, thats what i say.

What about the women???

Agree.....Murderers (1st degree) should be full term of sentance and no privilages

Manslaughterers should get reviews and subsequent privilages



What about the women???

Women can work too cant they ? get them doing anything manual or mind numbingly boring. I think prison should be a tough place to be, not a holiday camp.

I think prison should be a tough place to be, not a holiday camp.

It isn't though Bons. I know a psychiatrist who does prison visits, he says anyone who thinks prisoners have it cushy should see for themselves, it's terrrible life.

Do you think they shouldn't have any form of recreation like pool or TV? If that was taken away from them don't you think things would become very difficult for the wardens, everyone would go crazy surely?

GOOD!!!!!

That was my initial thought when I read the title of this thread! Shame it wasnt something worse!! Talk about bad karma and bad chi - what goes around, comes around!

Sex offenders, kiddie killers and paedophiles DO get segregated - for their own safety - I say let them loose with the rest of them and see how they like their liberties being abused, the sick b@st@rds!!

I feel quite strongly that, so often, the criminals bleat on about their human rights, when the crimes they have committed have shown nothing but disregard and contempt for the victims human rights - it infuriates me!!!

You do the crime you face the time and consequences!!!

It isn't though Bons. I know a psychiatrist who does prison visits, he says anyone who thinks prisoners have it cushy should see for themselves, it's terrrible life.

Do you think they shouldn't have any form of recreation like pool or TV? If that was taken away from them don't you think things would become very difficult for the wardens, everyone would go crazy surely?

I can remember seeing a photo of Myra Hindleys cell, and she had every luxury you can think of, including her own tea / coffee making machine and fridge. Why was she allowed such things. I dont care if she had been there for decades, she commited crimes and should be paid. Its the risk you take.

No i dont think prisoners should be allowed a pool or a TV. A pool !!!!! I mean, come on, us non offenders have to pay to use one of those.

The only 'luxury' i think a criminal should have is the chance to read and extend the mind. Other than that, they should sit in a cell with a bucket for a toilet.

It might be harsh, but that how i feel it should be.

I can remember seeing a photo of Myra Hindleys cell, and she had every luxury you can think of, including her own tea / coffee making machine and fridge. Why was she allowed such things. I dont care if she had been there for decades, she commited crimes and should be paid. Its the risk you take.

No i dont think prisoners should be allowed a pool or a TV. A pool !!!!! I mean, come on, us non offenders have to pay to use one of those.

The only 'luxury' i think a criminal should have is the chance to read and extend the mind. Other than that, they should sit in a cell with a bucket for a toilet.

It might be harsh, but that how i feel it should be.

Bonny, I am not trying to make a mockery of the law but not every prisoner who is in prison is a murderer, paedohile etc some are in there for minor offences. A agree that it appears that prisoners do seem to have it all but I am sure if you were behind bars you might see it differently. Myra Hindley did not have every luxury you can think off and while it may seem she had everything she did not have want she most wanted, her freedom. She still went to bed everynight behind a locked door.

Myra Hindley did not have every luxury you can think off and while it may seem she had everything she did not have want she most wanted, her freedom. She still went to bed everynight behind a locked door.

Good. And i didnt mean every prisioner. I think the people in the high security prisons should get nothing. The peeps who have done lessor crimes and are in low securies should get privaleges.

If i were in prison i dont think i would feel different. I would of done the crime, and i would deserve to be punished. I dont see watching Corrie and doing 50 lengths of a pool is punishment.

I dont see watching Corrie and doing 50 lengths of a pool is punishment.


50 lengths!!!! not punishment?

Back o/t:

I think most prisoners should be there to be rehabilitated or at least to learn remorse or understanding for what they did and the effects it's had. Although I suspect that a lot of them have a criminal nature and in the past deterrents have not worked.

It's a very complex question.

I agree with Bonnie. I think some prisoners get too many privelages. Fair enough, not all of them do and I'm sure there are some who have it really tough inside but there are definately those who don't have it as tough as they should.
Look at those evil guys who killed Jamie Bulger (sp??) - they had televisions, cd players, playstations and everything!
And I saw on tv that one prison (can't remember where abouts) actually has a private golf course for the prisoners!

No i dont think prisoners should be allowed a pool or a TV. A pool !!!!! I mean, come on, us non offenders have to pay to use one of those.

I meant pool as in a pool table, not a swimming pool.

I agree with Bonnie. I think some prisoners get too many privelages. Fair enough, not all of them do and I'm sure there are some who have it really tough inside but there are definately those who don't have it as tough as they should.
Look at those evil guys who killed Jamie Bulger (sp??) - they had televisions, cd players, playstations and everything!
And I saw on tv that one prison (can't remember where abouts) actually has a private golf course for the prisoners!

I think the young boys who killed Jamie Bulger are not really comparable with adult prisoners. If anyone in prison had a real chance at rehabilitation then surely it was always going to be the very young offenders. And, from the reports and their lives outside now, it does appear that the interventions that took place in prison, have had a positive effect i.e. no recurrence of crime. Isnt that what it is all about?

Providing educational and recreational facilities while locked up are only some examples of how to hold people humanely while they are locked up. There are other psychological interventions on offer as well. The image I have, from ltd experience, is an environment that is not at all cosy. The open prisons, from the less severe offender, offer a measure of restriction (locked up) for people serving their debt to society and who will then be released.

There are so many types of prisons, mostly with ltd facilities and resources, and so many different profiles of prisoners that one comment does not appear to do justice to the diversity of this population and the prisons. I recently met with the governor of a prison and offering a highly comfortable environment was really not on the agenda at all.

I meant pool as in a pool table, not a swimming pool.

:laugh:..............

I think the young boys who killed Jamie Bulger are not really comparable with adult prisoners. If anyone in prison had a real chance at rehabilitation then surely it was always going to be the very young offenders. And, from the reports and their lives outside now, it does appear that the interventions that took place in prison, have had a positive effect i.e. no recurrence of crime. Isnt that what it is all about?


I agree tonee.

As I said earlier I would suspect that many habitual cirminals have had lots of interventions etc and yet they end up back in prison. Once they get out the pressure from family members and peers to return to criminality is great.

One of the reasons the Bulger killers had such a good chance at rehabilitation is that they were taken away from the criminal environment which they were in before they committed the crime. Many criminals don't have this advantage and so find themselves right back where they started.

And i don't agree that prisons are cushy ... it just seems that way. They must be oppressive, scary places where you have no control over your choices. Those who do find it comforting (ie. three square meals a day, fixed regime, no worries about day to day living etc) have probably become instutionalised over the years they've spent in prisons.

I think the young boys who killed Jamie Bulger are not really comparable with adult prisoners. If anyone in prison had a real chance at rehabilitation then surely it was always going to be the very young offenders. And, from the reports and their lives outside now, it does appear that the interventions that took place in prison, have had a positive effect i.e. no recurrence of crime. Isnt that what it is all about?

Yes but was it really necessary to let them have access to sony playstations???

Slightly off the lines of this thread, but close enough to warrant being posted on here.................


SCOTS' VIOLENT SHAMEhttp://www.sky.com/x/x.gif

Scotland has been named the most violent country in the developed world.
A United Nations report claims more than 2,000 Scots are assaulter every
week - almost 10 times official police figures.

The study - which does not include figures for murder, muggings or sexual assaults - claims that together, England and Wales are the second most dangerous countries.

Experts say Britain's heavy-drinking habits are to blame.

The UN claims the attacks have been fuelled by a "booze and blades" culture in the west of Scotland with the worst offenders being males aged between 15 and 25.

Violent crime has doubled in the country over the past 20 years to a level comparable with crime-ridden cities like Rio de Janeiro.

By contrast, Japan was named in the UN report as the least violent nation, followed by Italy and Portugal.

Only 0.1% of Japanese have been victims of assault compared with 3% of Scots, 2.8% in England and Wales, and 2% in America.

The study is based on phone interviews with victims of crime in 21 countries.

UN spokesman Jan Van Dijk said: "Our survey is more accurate than the official figures because there is a huge proportion of crimes that go unreported.

"We have seen a trend in Scotland and the proportion has almost doubled since 1989 and risen 1.9% in 1996. This is very significant and is a clear upward trend."

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13440940,00.html


......and no, I am not in the least bit surprised by this finding. We are failing our kids horrifically by not punishing them correctly for misdemeanors, so they end up knowing they can get away with virtually anything without chastisement.

We have got to stop this rot, although I do think it is completely out of control now.

The UN claims the attacks have been fuelled by a "booze and blades" culture in the west of Scotland with the worst offenders being males aged between 15 and 25.

It wasn't me :ninja:

Slightly off the lines of this thread, but close enough to warrant being posted on here.................


SCOTS' VIOLENT SHAMEhttp://www.sky.com/x/x.gif

Scotland has been named the most violent country in the developed world.
A United Nations report claims more than 2,000 Scots are assaulter every
week - almost 10 times official police figures.

.


Yikes i am off to Scotland in two weeks time :ohmy: ( say it is'nt so) :sad:

Having read through this and the other emotive thread about the death sentance I have something to say, not sure how relavent but here goes.

My parents first born was run over at the age of 5 years by the laundry van. My mum was about mid 30's and witnessed this accident - which it was. But to this day she can never forgive the 18 year old young lad who drove the van over her first born and killed him. The poor lad was distraught and a week or so later he and his mum arrived at my mums house and mum just slammed the door in their faces.

A local doctor suggested that mum helped other greiving parents and she tried this, but being that she had been given no time to greive herself she wasn't anygood and stopped it.

5 years ago, in one of the last coherant conversations I had with mum she said that she regretted not embrassing the mum and son into her arms. She lives with her regret - or did. She has now had Altzeimers for 5 years and has no idea who most of us are.

I just know her life would have been better if she had made peace with the poor sod who killed her son.

How this relates to people who deliberately kill people I'm really not sure, but I really think it is a natural human gift to forgive. Forgiveness is easier to live with than hatred.

Having read through this and the other emotive thread about the death sentance I have something to say, not sure how relavent but here goes.

My parents first born was run over at the age of 5 years by the laundry van. My mum was about mid 30's and witnessed this accident - which it was. But to this day she can never forgive the 18 year old young lad who drove the van over her first born and killed him. The poor lad was distraught and a week or so later he and his mum arrived at my mums house and mum just slammed the door in their faces.

A local doctor suggested that mum helped other greiving parents and she tried this, but being that she had been given no time to greive herself she wasn't anygood and stopped it.

5 years ago, in one of the last coherant conversations I had with mum she said that she regretted not embrassing the mum and son into her arms. She lives with her regret - or did. She has now had Altzeimers for 5 years and has no idea who most of us are.

I just know her life would have been better if she had made peace with the poor sod who killed her son.

How this relates to people who deliberately kill people I'm really not sure, but I really think it is a natural human gift to forgive. Forgiveness is easier to live with than hatred.

Oh that is so sad, as hard as it is sometimes we should forgive people for our own peace, i think if you don't you just become bitter and can't move on.

Yes but was it really necessary to let them have access to sony playstations???

I dont really understand the significance of this for you. Maybe we are looking at this from two radically different viewpoints? If I was to apply a theory behind this intervention, playstations, swimming pool, outdoor trekking - all of these "luxury" items would make sense in a cohesive plan to rehabilitate. That would be my reading of this. On their own, playstations look like indulgence that is inappropriate but part of a package of care, it makes perfect sense to me.

I dont really understand the significance of this for you. Maybe we are looking at this from two radically different viewpoints? If I was to apply a theory behind this intervention, playstations, swimming pool, outdoor trekking - all of these "luxury" items would make sense in a cohesive plan to rehabilitate. That would be my reading of this. On their own, playstations look like indulgence that is inappropriate but part of a package of care, it makes perfect sense to me.
Ok, that's great.
But it doesn't make "perfect sense" to me.
I guess we just have opposing opinions on this one.

Ok, that's great.
But it doesn't make "perfect sense" to me.
I guess we just have opposing opinions on this one.

Yep, I guess we do.

I dont really understand the significance of this for you. Maybe we are looking at this from two radically different viewpoints? If I was to apply a theory behind this intervention, playstations, swimming pool, outdoor trekking - all of these "luxury" items would make sense in a cohesive plan to rehabilitate. That would be my reading of this. On their own, playstations look like indulgence that is inappropriate but part of a package of care, it makes perfect sense to me.

I agree that there should be the chance for rehabilitation, but I think that there are far better things that they can be doing than playing games on a PS or XBox!

When I was in my teens/20's the local Youth Offending Prison was fully self sufficient, with a farm, where the lads worked - and imo they should re-introduce this, it would save tax payers money, it would ensure a healty diet for the inmates and it would give them some sense of worth!

I agree that there should be the chance for rehabilitation, but I think that there are far better things that they can be doing than playing games on a PS or XBox!

When I was in my teens/20's the local Youth Offending Prison was fully self sufficient, with a farm, where the lads worked - and imo they should re-introduce this, it would save tax payers money, it would ensure a healty diet for the inmates and it would give them some sense of worth!

I am sorry but I do think and support the people working within this environment and making those decisions ( which have had a positive outcome). Tax payers money being saved by exactly what? Focusing solely on playstations, for me, is ridiculous - you (and I mean you as a collective) are not there and not responsible for this person's rehabilitation. I would choose to trust in the ethics and professionalism behind this - that's just me though.

I am sorry but I do think and support the people working within this environment and making those decisions ( which have had a positive outcome). Tax payers money being saved by exactly what? Focusing solely on playstations, for me, is ridiculous - you (and I mean you as a collective) are not there and not responsible for this person's rehabilitation. I would choose to trust in the ethics and professionalism behind this - that's just me though.

I dont just mean the PS etc, many of the youngsters who are locked up in YOI's have little or no respect for anyone or anything, they have a problem with authority and lack discipline, they think the world owes them a living and that they are above the law, they need to learn some life skills, some humility and get some self respect....

I have several friends who are Prison Officers in a YOI and the cons that they get the best out of, and who tend not to re-offend, are the ones who have been given some sort of job and responsibility!

As for the taxpayers money being saved - it would reduce the expenditure if a Prison was self sufficient - and Im darn sure if I was banged up I would look forward to going to a job in the fresh air each day, rather than be stuck in a cell getting cabin fever!

Many young people DO get institutionalised in the prison system, they "feel safe" there and often have friends in there with no one on the outside for them, surely by teaching these kids to work for a living, teaching them about team work, and most importantly some life skills, then perhaps less will re-offend - thus saving taxpayers money......

Having read through this and the other emotive thread about the death sentance I have something to say, not sure how relavent but here goes.

My parents first born was run over at the age of 5 years by the laundry van. My mum was about mid 30's and witnessed this accident - which it was. But to this day she can never forgive the 18 year old young lad who drove the van over her first born and killed him. The poor lad was distraught and a week or so later he and his mum arrived at my mums house and mum just slammed the door in their faces.

A local doctor suggested that mum helped other greiving parents and she tried this, but being that she had been given no time to greive herself she wasn't anygood and stopped it.

5 years ago, in one of the last coherant conversations I had with mum she said that she regretted not embrassing the mum and son into her arms. She lives with her regret - or did. She has now had Altzeimers for 5 years and has no idea who most of us are.

I just know her life would have been better if she had made peace with the poor sod who killed her son.

How this relates to people who deliberately kill people I'm really not sure, but I really think it is a natural human gift to forgive. Forgiveness is easier to live with than hatred.

I think this this is a beautiful post and very moving.

And Cat - I agree with you. Forginvenes IS easier to live with thatn hatred. It is also far, far less destructive.

You are ery, very wise!

I dont just mean the PS etc, many of the youngsters who are locked up in YOI's have little or no respect for anyone or anything, they have a problem with authority and lack discipline, they think the world owes them a living and that they are above the law, they need to learn some life skills, some humility and get some self respect....

I have several friends who are Prison Officers in a YOI and the cons that they get the best out of, and who tend not to re-offend, are the ones who have been given some sort of job and responsibility!

As for the taxpayers money being saved - it would reduce the expenditure if a Prison was self sufficient - and Im darn sure if I was banged up I would look forward to going to a job in the fresh air each day, rather than be stuck in a cell getting cabin fever!

Many young people DO get institutionalised in the prison system, they "feel safe" there and often have friends in there with no one on the outside for them, surely by teaching these kids to work for a living, teaching them about team work, and most importantly some life skills, then perhaps less will re-offend - thus saving taxpayers money......

I think what I am trying, and not very well, to say is, that I respect the work that I do, on a daily basis, which is based on qualifications, experience, training and individual assessment. From the outside, people may question my work but from the inside, I make sound clinical decisons. So, what I am saying is, that in these environments, the professionals on board have to justify their decisions to their supervisors and their team and knowing the ropes of this, I opt to trust in their professional decisions because they are not so easy to defend if they are not based on sound, clinical assessments.

I think this this is a beautiful post and very moving.

And Cat - I agree with you. Forginvenes IS easier to live with thatn hatred. It is also far, far less destructive.

You are ery, very wise!

I meant to quote Cat and not Karenh here...but I agree with the sentiments. Your mum learned something important......and yes very wise.........

I think what I am trying, and not very well, to say is, that I respect the work that I do, on a daily basis, which is based on qualifications, experience, training and individual assessment. From the outside, people may question my work but from the inside, I make sound clinical decisons. So, what I am saying is, that in these environments, the professionals on board have to justify their decisions to their supervisors and their team and knowing the ropes of this, I opt to trust in their professional decisions because they are not so easy to defend if they are not based on sound, clinical assessments.

Im sure this works for many Tonee, but so many DO re-offend, time and time again, so how can re-habilitation work for them? Does it not make sense to perhaps re-structure the re-habilitation for persistant offenders?

I do understand that many offenders are in Prison because of the result of their personal "demons" - they get caught up in drink, drugs, gangs, etc, it is their escape from reality, where perhaps they have faced parents death/divorce, physical/sexual abuse and the like, so yes it is important to work with them and get to the CAUSE of persistant behaviour problems and work through the demons, build up self confidence, self respect and life skills!

I really think the whole of the Legal System in the UK needs a bluddy good shake up - we need to create the correct balance!

Im sure this works for many Tonee, but so many DO re-offend, time and time again, so how can re-habilitation work for them? Does it not make sense to perhaps re-structure the re-habilitation for persistant offenders?

I do understand that many offenders are in Prison because of the result of their personal "demons" - they get caught up in drink, drugs, gangs, etc, it is their escape from reality, where perhaps they have faced parents death/divorce, physical/sexual abuse and the like, so yes it is important to work with them and get to the CAUSE of persistant behaviour problems and work through the demons, build up self confidence, self respect and life skills!

I really think the whole of the Legal System in the UK needs a bluddy good shake up - we need to create the correct balance!

The getting to the root of the cause is not necessarily the focus.
People do re-offend and that would be a cause for review, for sure.
I think this whole area of work is not easy, and I also think that the professional services, legal services etc are not completely successful but that doesnt mean they have failed either. It is difficult, I would think.

The getting to the root of the cause is not necessarily the focus.
People do re-offend and that would be a cause for review, for sure.
I think this whole area of work is not easy, and I also think that the professional services, legal services etc are not completely successful but that doesnt mean they have failed either. It is difficult, I would think.

I have a friend who is in Prison at the moment, he is 30, it is his 9th time inside which is quite shocking as the last sentance (a couple of years ago) was for 5 years, I am pleased to say that this time around, he has been working with the therapists and working out, he is clean from smack and crack, and he has recently been diagnosed with ADHD, he is on meds and is apparrently a new man - IF only this had been diagnosed earlier, he may have had a better start in life!

I have a friend who is in Prison at the moment, he is 30, it is his 9th time inside which is quite shocking as the last sentance (a couple of years ago) was for 5 years, I am pleased to say that this time around, he has been working with the therapists and working out, he is clean from smack and crack, and he has recently been diagnosed with ADHD, he is on meds and is apparrently a new man - IF only this had been diagnosed earlier, he may have had a better start in life!

I think what this means is that more investment in servics are essential!!

I think what this means is that more investment in servics are essential!!

They could invest the money they save by going self sufficient :wink_kiss

They could invest the money they save by going self sufficient :wink_kiss
what does that mean Isis?

what does that mean Isis?

Sorry - wasnt being funny, just that its one way of getting the funding needed, reduce one budget and increase the other - I cant see the Government putting any more in........I would love to know WHERE this countries money is going, cos it aint going on the NHS unless you count the THOUSANDS spent on a bluddy great pebble, Education, Emergency/Prison Services - all we ever hear about is cut backs.......but thats another topic itself isnt it!!!

Sorry - wasnt being funny, just that its one way of getting the funding needed, reduce one budget and increase the other - I cant see the Government putting any more in........I would love to know WHERE this countries money is going, cos it aint going on the NHS unless you count the THOUSANDS spent on a bluddy great pebble, Education, Emergency/Prison Services - all we ever hear about is cut backs.......but thats another topic itself isnt it!!!

ok, but I dont understand the direction of your comment, really I dont so Im just being obtuse or something .... the funding question is always there.

ok, but I dont understand the direction of your comment, really I dont so Im just being obtuse or something .... the funding question is always there.

What I meant was, that if a Prison produced all of its own meat, milk, bread and vegetables etc, at the same time, provide a work environment for the inmates, then the money that is saved on buying in produce could be reinvested in providing the funding for specialist therapists for the people that need them - with the closure of many mental health units in the last 25 years, there are people in prison that need specialist mental health help.

And if you dont get it now, I dont either :laugh:

What I meant was, that if a Prison produced all of its own meat, milk, bread and vegetables etc, at the same time, provide a work environment for the inmates, then the money that is saved on buying in produce could be reinvested in providing the funding for specialist therapists for the people that need them - with the closure of many mental health units in the last 25 years, there are people in prison that need specialist mental health help.

And if you dont get it now, I dont either :laugh:

well I get it but the price of bread and milk and the price of specialist therapies have quite a large chasm to negotiate. Bartering anyone???:w00t:

well I get it but the price of bread and milk and the price of specialist therapies have quite a large chasm to negotiate. Bartering anyone???:w00t:

And I guess focussing just on milk and bread is a bit similar to me and Peej Focusing solely on playstations, for me, is ridiculous now who isnt seeing the bigger picture?

And I guess focssing just on milk and bread is a bit similar to me and Peej now who isnt seeing the bigger picture?

It is obviously way past my bedtime because I have no idea what you are talking about/ Let me just say that specialist services are exactly that and they come with a high price tag and are not a short term option. They dont equate financially for me with food self-sufficiency. I do think of the bigger option but I really dont understand what you are saying - but I am tired so that might be it. So au revoir, I'll look again at it and see if I get it. I can be very obtuse sometimes!!

You get a balance sheet - on it shows income and expenditure.

A prisons income would, I guess, be government funding.

The expenditure would be the costs of running the prison.

In the running costs, such as electricity, gas, water, wages, maintenance etc, there would also be the thousands of pounds which is spent annually buying in fruit, vegetables, meat etc to feed HUNDREDS of people 3 times a day, what I am saying is, that if a prison was in a position to produce this themselves, then they wouldnt be spending thousands buying it in, then there would be money available over which could be spent in other areas.... it would also help in re-habilitaing the prisoners that perhaps dont need such specialist help.....

now if that isnt explained then I give up! Its not rocket science!

You get a balance sheet - on it shows income and expenditure.

A prisons income would, I guess, be government funding.

The expenditure would be the costs of running the prison.

In the running costs, such as electricity, gas, water, wages, maintenance etc, there would also be the thousands of pounds which is spent annually buying in fruit, vegetables, meat etc to feed HUNDREDS of people 3 times a day, what I am saying is, that if a prison was in a position to produce this themselves, then they wouldnt be spending thousands buying it in, then there would be money available over which could be spent in other areas.... it would also help in re-habilitaing the prisoners that perhaps dont need such specialist help.....

now if that isnt explained then I give up! Its not rocket science!

I get it but it doesnt make any sense :goof: its not the sort of thing you could sell at any meeting for example....it doesnt realisticaly seem feasible although I think your intentiions are cool.

I get it but it doesnt make any sense :goof: its not the sort of thing you could sell at any meeting for example....it doesnt realisticaly seem feasible although I think your intentiions are cool.

just to state, it looks like I am being sarcastic with the above smilie, I didnt use it for that purpose. Logically, if it works, your idea sounds sound - I just dont think it would work for a number of reasons but the intention behind it is sound :thumbsup:

just to state, it looks like I am being sarcastic with the above smilie, I didnt use it for that purpose. Logically, if it works, your idea sounds sound - I just dont think it would work for a number of reasons but the intention behind it is sound :thumbsup:

Well as an accountant I can assure you that it DOES work in a meeting, I have spent the last 10 years doing just this for a living!

you need more money for one area and less for another then you reduce your spending........

come on Tonee, surely you have heard about the black and white world I live in ALL accountants do - perhaps the Government should invest in one or 2 - me and my brother in law are available if you are interested Mr BLiar............

oh and I didnt take it as being sarcastic :wink2:

Can i just say that i live near a prison. It was where Geoffrey Archer went. I walk through it when i take the dog for a walk.

Basically it is an open prison, and the prison owns all the land around it. They have cows, sheep, pigs, a dairy farm etc etc. The prisoners all look after the animals and the surrounding land (cutting the grass etc).

And they are lovely lovely men. Because it is an open prison they can walk around upto certain boundaries. When i see them, they wave at me and say "hello ma'am", and sometimes they come and fuss the dog and tell me how lovely he is etc ....

It was one of the prisoners who made my year in April when they let me feed one of the baby lambs. It was a fantastic experience, and only made possible by these prisoners.

Now - the prison is low security. The only people in there are tax dodgers, and sometimes someone (maybe in for GBH) who is at the very end of their sentence to re habilitate.

Because of the work they do around the farm, they are happy healthy guys who appreciate how good they have it - i mean, they could be locked up in a maximum security prison.

So - i agree with Isis. I think prisoners should work on the farm. It gives them a purpose, and helps them re establish themselves in the outside world.

BUT - only if the prisoners are low risk do i agree with the above, if they are in for murder etc ... then i refer to my post earlier on.

All prisons should and could be almost self sufficient thereby giving us, the law abiding public, very little in costing. All should have a full working day in one form or another and be trained in a useable trade for when they get out. However, as one who has an ex prison officer as a mate, who quit because he thought the system stank, and told me tales about what does go on in other than open prisons, it looks like that is far from the case.

I'm with Isis on this one also. Yes I understand the logistics of what tonee is talking about too, but tonee, the system isn't working very well at the moment. Put as many specialists in there as you want, but until the prisoners are given something to help them believe in themselves and feel worthwhile, it's not going to have a great effect.

if they are in for murder etc ... then i refer to my post earlier on.
And obviously this is the type of prisoners I was talking about when I made my posts.....should've made that clear I suppose.

It has just been announced that Huntley will spend the next 40 years behind bars. He had hoped to be able to serve a normal sentence.

Do you think 40 years is right for a man like Huntley - or do you think 'life' should mean life ?

Life should mean life - I have always said that. And I am most surprised that the judge who presided at the trial was the one who decreed the 40 years!!! Seems a bit barmy to me??

Is he eligible for parole after 1/3 sentence has been served?

He cannot apply for any parole until he has served a minimum of 40 years.

He'll never get out despite the 40 year tag. He will be 70 before he can apply for parole, he'll never adjust to having his freedom at that age and I am sure there will still be vigilantes in 40 years time. The Holly & Jessica will be etched on our brains and our children's and no doubt their children's brains in years to come. I wasn't born when Ian Brady and Myra Hyndley were convicted of their crimes but I still knew who they were and what they stood for.

So I do think that despite him being eligible for parole in 40 years time, I very much doubt that he will ever be set free.