Jail rapped over St George's pins

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40870000/jpg/_40870930_flag_pabody203.jpg The report said race relations were a weak area in the prison

Prison officers at a West Yorkshire jail have been advised in a report not to wear St George's Cross tie-pins.

The wearing of England's national symbol by staff at Wakefield Prison could be "misinterpreted", said the report's section on race relations.

Chief inspector of prisons Anne Owers said she had been told the pins were bought in support of a cancer charity.

But one of her formal recommendations was that "staff should not wear unauthorised tie-pins".

Ms Owers said race was a "weak area" of prison policy.

Her report highlighted "discrepancies in the representation of black and minority ethnic prisoners in some key areas, such as use of force, segregation and the few available jobs".

Brian Caton, of the Prison Officer's Association, said: "If the only problem the chief inspector found was tie-pins carrying the Cross of St George, which is after all the English national flag, then there can't be a lot wrong with Wakefield prison.

"Staff at this establishment are among the most professional in the Prison Service and deal with some of the most difficult, damaged and dangerous inmates, including some of the country's most high-profile criminals."

Soham killer Ian Huntley, last week handed a 40-year tariff for murdering Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman, is among inmates at Wakefield, where serial killer Harold Shipman killed himself in January last year. In her report, Ms Owers said: "However, Wakefield is clearly a prison on the move. "But there is a great deal of movement still required in order to make it a fully effective prison, able to engage properly with the serious and difficult offenders that it holds."

Excuse me while I just scream! ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHH!! :angry:
I want my country and it's values back now, this is mental! :cry:

Sorry, link for above: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_yorkshire/4305798.stm

More complete and utter pee-cee cobblers by hand-wringing middle-class patronising liberal wets who really need to get out more and talk to ordinary people about their concerns.

I think they might just discover that the wearing of cancer charity tie-pins is pretty low down the list of things people worry about....

Well, just to play devil's advocate here, I think there's probably going to be a fair few racist prison officers in an area like that, and the wearing of an England flag tie pn could be construed as an emblem of that - which is how it is used in certain sub-groups.

I think the cancer pin business is just as likely to be a blind, a disingenuous way of making it look innocent.

You know SF, this is all over some of the largest news forums on the net, masses of people have responded to it, but none like you just have. Still, they always say there is nowt so queer as folk! :huh:

Well I've never been one to follow the crowd.

Nah!! You're just out of step is all.........................

Who with - the crowd? Suits me!

Well, just to play devil's advocate here, I think there's probably going to be a fair few racist prison officers in an area like that, and the wearing of an England flag tie pn could be construed as an emblem of that - which is how it is used in certain sub-groups.

I think the cancer pin business is just as likely to be a blind, a disingenuous way of making it look innocent.


SF, are you just playing devil's advocate or do you really think this? I'm curious to know why you would think that there would be a fair few racist prison officers in that area? It's unlike you to come out with a rather stereotypical view of certain groups of people.

Brian Caton, of the Prison Officer's Association, said: "If the only problem the chief inspector found was tie-pins carrying the Cross of St George, which is after all the English national flag, then there can't be a lot wrong with Wakefield prison."
But that's not the only problem found. So why did he say this?

why you would think that there would be a fair few racist prison officers in that area?

Strong anti Asian feelings in that part of the world, I wouldn't expect prison officers to be immune from it.

But that's an assumption though right? I just feel it was a bit of a loaded comment to make, based on lack of evidence.

What's an assumption? That there are strong anti Asian feelings in that part of the world? No, that isn't an assumption. What sort of evidence are you looking for?

Er, my understanding is that these tie pins were from a cancer charity..so...is that charity racist??

Let's get real. It's another case of patronising, hand wringing white middle class liberal do-gooders seeing offence where none exists.

How many prisoners have complained about the tie pins? How many took offence?

Bloody hell...these cretins have been on one too many diversity awareness courses for their own good.

Well, just to add to this thread, this is how we, the Brits, are being cartooned in the US right now on the 'pig' issue. Do they have us right - sadly! :angry:



http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/05.10.04.PerilsSwine-X.gif

thank you Eternity ... it's about time that little b****d got his come uppance!!! :devil: :laugh:

<editted for bad language>

What's an assumption? That there are strong anti Asian feelings in that part of the world? No, that isn't an assumption. What sort of evidence are you looking for?


The assumption is that a fair few prison officers in that area would be racist. I just don't think it was fair to call a few people racist without having evidence that they are. Yes it may be prevalent in that area, and yes it could happen, but to state categorically that it is so without knowing those people is an assumption IMO.

[QUOTE=Normal1]Er, my understanding is that these tie pins were from a cancer charity..so...is that charity racist??/QUOTE]*

No, but that's as pointless as asking - given that we are aware how some yobs use the England flag as a symbol of their racism - is the flag maker racist?

Agreed some political corectness camps go too far and look silly. But by and large I think these things are done for a good reason - to prevent some minority or another being hurt or disadvantaged by our behaviour, use of language etc.

I think the prison officers tie pins is a good example of something that on the one hand causes Daily Mail readers to go apopletic yet if you look at it another way you can see the reason for it.

prisons are known hotbeds of racism with racist attacks and bullying being common. You have to ask yourself if prison officers are exempt or part of it. You have to ask yourself if prison officers are wearing England flags, is it because they are wondferfully patriotic, like donatig to cancer charities, or want to show that white is supreme.. Whatever the reason, innocent, ingenious, or otherwise,surely is at least a sensible precaution if the Officers are asked not to wear these pins. Not because of what the pins are in themselves but because of what under certain circumstances especially somewhere like wakefield prison they can easily be construed to represent.

I'd also ask why Eternity is so outraged at this - surely prison officers problems in Wakefield aren't stopping her from decorating her house from top to bottom with England Flags if she wants to. Isn't this just another opportunity to moan about the loss of conservative values in Britain?


* edit to add an afterthought

have I misunderstood? Are the charities being deemed racist, rather than the fringe use of the flag as a racist symbol?

The assumption is that a fair few prison officers in that area would be racist. I just don't think it was fair to call a few people racist without having evidence that they are. Yes it may be prevalent in that area, and yes it could happen, but to state categorically that it is so without knowing those people is an assumption IMO.

Life consists of having to make what you feel are reasonable assumptions. But even if Wakefield Prison Officers are all as pure as the driven snow, i think the objection to this wearing the flag thing is reasonable in this case.

Let me ask you a question - is there corruption in the prison service?

Yes I think there is corruption is any service, be it prison, police etc. But I myself would refrain from making a sweeping comment unless I had seen proof.

It's time we reclaimed our country back as our own, by showing the pride that we should in being English. The people who are claimed to be offended are English/British themselves and should themselves show the same pride. If not, then they should get over it.

Tigger is right, it is pretty common place for English/British Jobsworths to come up with these little gems where the ethnic people do not want to see them instigated as they know they are only going to cause more racism - or maybe that is the intent?


I have been on the receiving end of racist policies in Muslim countries, that muslims have gone out of their way to apologise to me for, as they said, it leaves me with a bad impression and destroys the credibility of their country.

The credibility of our country is lying in tatters on the floor becuase the lunatic fringe have taken over, and the daft thing, we actually let them get away with it!

Yes I think there is corruption is any service, be it prison, police etc. But I myself would refrain from making a sweeping comment unless I had seen proof..

What proof have you seen of corruption in the prison service, and does iit extend to racist behaviour towards inmates?

Tigger is right,

... no, you agree with her, that's not the same as her being right.

Of course there is corruption and rasicm in both the prisons and the police, I know that for a fact having friends who work/have worked in both. It's a fact of life, it's everywhere, and it's encouraged and aggrevated by stupid morons making up stupid rules

Of course there is corruption and rasicm in both the prisons and the police, I know that for a fact having friends who work/have worked in both. It's a fact of life, it's everywhere, and it's encouraged and aggrevated by stupid morons making up stupid rules

so it's someone else's fault?

... no, you agree with her, that's not the same as her being right.

Umm, yes, it is. If she said black is black and I said she was right, I would be agreeing with her therefore she would be right and I would be in agreement.

so it's someone else's fault?

Would you like to expand on that? I don't quite get where you are heading!

What proof have you seen of corruption in the prison service, and does iit extend to racist behaviour towards inmates?


I haven't seen any proof myself SF. But............... the evidence that shows it exists comes from the media and is magnified by that same body. Now media is well known to blow things out of proportion or even bend the truth to get a story. So I myself refrain from making sweeping statements on what the media would wish me to believe about certain groups of people. Racist or not, anyone is free to wear the symbol of the country they represent, and these liberalists are as has been said, just stirring up trouble where there doesn't need to be any.

Umm, yes, it is. If she said black is black and I said she was right, I would be agreeing with her therefore she would be right and I would be in agreement.

No it isn't. Stating that black is black is making an objective statement of fact over which there can be no doubt, voicing a personal opinion about racism is something quite different.

Tigger, can I ask:
I just don't think it was fair to call a few people racist without having evidence that they are.
Yes I think there is corruption is any service, be it prison, police etc....I haven't seen any proof myself SF.
why do you tell me it's unfair that I make a claim without proof when you do the same?

also:
It's time we reclaimed our country back as our own
reclaim it back from whom?

You know something SF?? I really think you are just one miserable old git who gets kicks out of trying hard to be controversial. I don't know if you are male or female, but would guess at male through your 'mightier than thou' attitude, I would also guess at you being a pensioner who is just bored silly.


I may have to direct you to my site of 'elders', they would eat you up and spit you out! :sleep:

Bet you wouldn't have said that if I'd been agreeing with you.

You know something SF?? I really think you are just one miserable old git who gets kicks out of trying hard to be controversial. I don't know if you are male or female, but would guess at male through your 'mightier than thou' attitude, I would also guess at you being a pensioner who is just bored silly.


I may have to direct you to my site of 'elders', they would eat you up and spit you out! :sleep:

have you got a crystal ball :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Tigger, can I ask:


why do you tell me it's unfair that I make a claim without proof when you do the same?

also:

reclaim it back from whom?


It was unfair SF because you claimed that those prison officers in that particular jail were racist. I'm saying it probably goes on throughout the service without naming any particular areas, persons etc.

Reclaim it back from the liberalists who don't want us to celebrate anything that might be deemed offensive to the minorities. Such as Winterfest instead of Christmas etc etc.

I may have to direct you to my site of 'elders', they would eat you up and spit you out! :sleep:

link, please

link, please

Can we all sit back and watch them 'eating you up, and spitting you out' ? It could be more entertaining than X-factor ... in fact, most things are :unsure:

hate to think what the site is though - probably the Daily Mail User Group.


whoops - that'll make me popular

whoops - that'll make me popular

You couldn't possibly get any more popular..........could you, SF? :unsure:

It was unfair SF because you claimed that those prison officers in that particular jail were racist.

so have others - link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/file_on_4/4672235.stm)

Reading through this thread completely objectively, I have to say that I do think that SF makes a reasonable point.

If prisons are known hotbeds of racism and bullying (which they are), then surely the prison officers should be seen to take every precaution to avoid appearing racist! Unfortunately, St George's flag does - like it or not - have an historical racist association, as it has long been adopted by British neo-fascist groups as a sort of emblem. Think of the BNP or the National Front. Think football hooligans. The image of the St Georges flag is strongly associated with both highly racist groups. That is not the fault of British people per se nor it is the fault of the actual flag, but if I - a white middle class woman - can relate the image of the St George flag to neo-facism then surely it is understandable if ethnic groups do as well.

With that in mind, I don't think it is unreasonable to ask the prison officers not to wear the tie pin on their uniform. And actually, I think the whole Cancer Charity thing is a bit of a smokescreen. If the prison officers wish to donate to a cancer Charity (which presumably is their main reason for having the tie pin), then there is nothing in this rule to stop them donating. They are just being asked not to wear the tie pin on their work uniform. If they want to wear it on their casual clothes, they can!

However, having said all that, I do agree that it is getting harder and harder to be proudly British (and especially English) without being labelled "racist" and that imo, is ridiculous. In no other country in the world is patriotism deemed undesirable and that is how it should be - so why so different in Britian? There is no reason why a British or English person should not be proud of their country. But in this particualar instance, I do agree that the wearing of the St Geroges flag in an environment where it could genuinely be regarded as racist is just crazy! But don't blame the liberals for that - blame the neo-fascists who caused the flag to be associated with hatred and racism.

I do agree that it is getting harder and harder to be proudly British (and especially English) without being labelled "racist" and that imo, is ridiculous.

This has just made me wonder - is nationalism really desirable? In that nationalism is the precursor to racism - and that at the bottom line they are perhaps one and the same thing.

But karen, the same argument is used in society today. You get beef from the liberals about flying the flags on your houses, on government buildings etc. Where is the line drawn? I just think we should have the freedom to wear our flag no matter where. Just try telling an American they can't wear their flag for whatever reason. There would be chaos. Also in the south they still fly the federate flag in some places. Now that definitely has tones of racism, but just anyone dare say anything.

Whether the prison officers wear the flag or not, if they are racist they are racist and some flag is not going to change their behaviour whatsoever.

This has just made me wonder - is nationalism really desirable? In that nationalism is the precursor to racism - and that at the bottom line they are perhaps one and the same thing.

This is often something I have thought about too SF. I cringe when people talk of "The British Empire" or "British Stiff Upper Lips" ... it just sends shivers down my spine (not in a good way!) ... it just strikes a note of jingo-sim to me.

Like it or not the flag of St George and the Union Jack have become symbols synonymous with the National Front. NOT THAT I'M COMPARING IT TO A SWASTIKA!! but didn't we have a conversation a while ago about the origins of the Swastika which apparently were nothing to do with Nazism but since it was adopted by the Nazis that is what it has come to represent.

These prison officers wearing the badge were at best patriotic and at worst showing subtle overtures towards facism.

btw - I've NEVER seen ANYONE wearing a St George Tie Pin anyway!!!! :blink:

This has just made me wonder - is nationalism really desirable? In that nationalism is the precursor to racism - and that at the bottom line they are perhaps one and the same thing.

Yeah - I see your point. However, I don't think that nationalism is necessarily a precusor to racism although I agree that there is probably a thin line separating the two and care would need to be taken to ensure that the line isn't crossed. But, what stops me from agreeing with you totally is that i have been to several countries where there is a strong sense of national pride, but which are very accepting of other cultures and nations. In contrast, Britian is not awash with national pride, yet racism is comparitively widespread, and oddly, I think the covert denial of a right to nationalism perpetrates that. The fact that it is deemed OK to be proudly Carribbean, Asian, Irish or whatever, but not OK to be proudly British is bound to cause some resentment. And rightly or wrongly, some people will direct that resentment towards the minority groups allowed to celebrate their culture, rather than the liberals who deny British people the right to do so.

Personallyy, I do think that nationalism is a good thing. People like to have a sense of identity and culture, and a strong feeling of national pride manifests itself in stronger community links and more care for the state of the country. That surely must be a good thing.

But karen, the same argument is used in society today. You get beef from the liberals about flying the flags on your houses, on government buildings etc. Where is the line drawn? I just think we should have the freedom to wear our flag no matter where. Just try telling an American they can't wear their flag for whatever reason. There would be chaos. Also in the south they still fly the federate flag in some places. Now that definitely has tones of racism, but just anyone dare say anything.

Whether the prison officers wear the flag or not, if they are racist they are racist and some flag is not going to change their behaviour whatsoever.

Yes - I agree that the Liberals take it too far sometimes, its just that in this instance, I think they have a point.

I see no reason why the Queen should not hoist the St Georges Flag at the top of Buckingham Palace. She is the frigging Queen of England for Gods sake! Neither do I see any reason why the Union Jack / St Georges flag should not be flown at the top of British Government buildings. And I defintiely see no reason why people should not cover their houses in the St Georges flag if that is what they want to do.

But, like it or not, the image of the St Georges Flag does have strong neo-fascist connotations. The way to break such connotations down is of course, to fly the flag in non neo-fascist environments. But frankly, I don't believe that a prison is such a place.

Yeah - I see your point. However, I don't think that nationalism is necessarily a precusor to racism

I think that in all examples of extreme racist behaviour by a country, you will find there is a strong sense of nationalism. The examples that immediately spring to mind are Nazi Germany, Austria, Serbia/Bosnia etc. There are plenty of less extreme cases, France for example - where there is a noticable racist attitude going hand in hand with strong national pride. In fact I would challenge you to find an example of a country where racism is rife which does not also have a strong sense of nationalism.

In fact I would challenge you to find an example of a country where racism is rife which does not also have a strong sense of nationalism.

OK, I rise to that challenge.

Britain!

Well, to that I think I'd say that historically Britain/England has been one of the most nationalistic states in the world, was highly racist in its attitudes towards foreigners, and we still live with that legacy. Maybe that fierce nationalism has to all intents and purposes disappeared, seeing as we no longer know who we are and what our place in the world is, but you do still sense it is there to some degree, even if nowadays it's confined to the pages of the Daily Mail.

Well, to that I think I'd say that historically Britain/England has been one of the most nationalistic states in the world, was highly racist in its attitudes towards foreigners, and we still live with that legacy.

Fair point to an extent, but every country that has welcomed migrants has displayed some degree of racism towards foreigners in their past. Those countries are not held to ransom for it now, so why are we? Time to move on from that legacy I think. Take Scotland for an example - at one time firecly racist to foreigners, and still full of National Pride to this day. Is Scotland any more racist than England?

Maybe that fierce nationalism has to all intents and purposes disappeared, seeing as we no longer know who we are and what our place in the world is.....

I disagree. I think that fierce nationalism has disappeared from England because we have been discouraged from having it.

....but you do still sense it is there to some degree, even if nowadays it's confined to the pages of the Daily Mail.

Ooh SF - that Daily Mail comment was purely provocative :laugh: (Although I agree that some of what is written in that paper is nothing less than inflammatory racist propoganda. I'm surprised they get away with it!).

But to answer your question, yes, I do think that racism exists in Britain to some degree. Quite a large degree actually. And I don't think it is confined to the pages of the "Daily Mail" either. I have seen signs of racism from both tabloid and broadsheet readers and from people who don't read either, because often such opinions stem from one's background and social influences, rathen than from ones choice of popular newspaper.

The only difference that I can see nowdays is that such views are largely repressed - at least vocally. And that is largely because you can be taken to court for expressing them.

The thing is, I'm not sure that racism can ever be totally eradicated, because while you can control what people say, you can't control what they think, and it is what they think that matters. But I think on of the big problems here is the assumption that it is only white British people who are deemed to be racist. There is simply no acknowlegement of the fact that racism exists in ALL quarters of society. And until that little problem is addressed, covert racism will continue to thrive. The eradication of racism is the responsibility of the entire British population - not just one portion of it.

I agree with Karen, the way this country bends over backwards to avoid racsism only succeeds in generating it. They get peoples backs up by banning this and that without finding out whether the majority of the people concerned are in actual fact offended by it.

I agree with Karen, the way this country bends over backwards to avoid racsism only succeeds in generating it. They get peoples backs up by banning this and that without finding out whether the majority of the people concerned are in actual fact offended by it.

Do you think that it is basically a good thing to try to prevent racism except when it's overdone, or is the whole thing misguided?

I don't think its entirely misguided and I do believe we can all learn from one another whatever our race or religion. I just feel that officialdom tries to push us in whatever direction they deem to be right whether it is or not. Let us make our own minds up once in a while.

I think it's a difficult path to tread. If you do nothing, racism will flourish openly, if you try to prevent it, people feel dictated to. Which is worse?

I think it's a difficult path to tread. If you do nothing, racism will flourish openly, if you try to prevent it, people feel dictated to. Which is worse?


well what about education?

Good point Dol.

I was leafing through a paper in the hospital this afternoon. Couldn't tell you which paper it was, but it wasn't a usual tabloid, but it mentioned that they have now built flats that have the toilets pointing away from mecca so it doesn't upset the Muslims.

Not quite sure how I feel about this. On one hand it's like 'what the heck?' but on the other hand if it's in a muslim area, what's the problem. But I can see how this could fuel racism.

As Dol says, education needs to happen. And I think racism should stop being swept under the carpet and bought out of denial. Because I think many, many people are racists in denial. We actually covered this in college the other night, about how we can counsel people who are different from us. And the thing we were taught is that we need to research these people's cultures, beliefs etc and find out where they are coming from and what they have suffered or lived with. It's not until we really know who they are that we can really have a true acceptance of them. And so that's where education would be a move towards the positive IMO.

I feel we have reached saturation point in being dictated to some of the measures we have had to swallow are ridiculous and it doesn't help in the problem of dealing with rascists.

To go back to the original topic of this thread I believe anyone who wishes to wear or display in any fashion their national flag should be allowed to. We should be proud of our country and should celebrate St George's Day preferably with a day off I am sure that would be acceptable to anyone choosing to live here.

Just read Tiggers post and I do agree with that education on both side is essential for us to live in harmony it would make a pleasant change from being dictated to.

Has anyone other than me actually lived in a Muslim country?? I mean the ones where there is no alcohol, where all women have to dress with decorum (as in the upper arms at least must be covered). Where a women is forbidden to shake hands with a man, and a couple are not allowed to 'court' without a chapperone? Because beleive you me, if you want to see real racism, that is where you will find it, in abbundance. I have been on the receiving end of real racism simply for being white, and double helpings for being British. Oddly, it is always the Muslim women who will apologise profusely to me for the laws that make me even more inferior than they already are deemed to be.


Racism does and will exist everywhere, it won't ever go away, it is a part of life that we have to learn to control, and not give in to. It's like a cancer that you can never cure, but you can give paliative treatment to. I despair of these morons who say we can't do this, or that, as it could offend an ethnic group, when in reality, they wouldn't give a flying fig if it was you in their country on the receiving end. On top of that all these measures do nothing other than increase resentment, and that is what is so frightening, because that, in the end, just causes more outpourings of racism.

I disagree with you Eternity. I think that ignoring racism is far more dangerous than over-reacting to it. So if in doubt then react IMO.

This thing about badges in prisons is a daft thing for people to get het up about. On the one hand, it's hardly the most oppressive thing in the world to do, to wear a badge. On the other hand, it's really not that big a deal to NOT wear a badge while on duty. After all, Prison Service rules ban any kind of unofficial badges. So why have the British media (and messageboards) gone ballistic about these badges? Why has there been no discussion of other things the report said, such as the fact that non-white prisoners are twice as likely to be charged for offences in the prison (and twice as likely to see those charges dismissed)?

Anyway, wasn't St George turkish? Seems like a model for modern multicultural Britain IMO ;)

Ah now, I never said to ignore it Mick, I said to control it, there is a difference. I would never advocate ignoring racism, not in this country anyway. However, in other countries you are left with no option but to ignore it, try protesting and you can receive severe punishment. It does begger belief that we have to kowtow down and not partake in any tiny thing that can be seen as racist (ie: banning the use of the word black in many cases, even if something is actually black!).

I despair of these morons who say we can't do this, or that, as it could offend an ethnic group, when in reality, they wouldn't give a flying fig if it was you in their country on the receiving end.

So what you're saying is that anyone trying to help racialism is a moron, and what's more why should we bother if other ethnic groups are racist too.

That strikes me as a negative attitude, and not particularly helpful.

I agree that meausres are sometimes taken too far, but I don't think it's done just for the sake of it, I think it's genuinely done to try to help, even though it can backfire.

You seem to be taking extreme examples and talking as if the whole system is like that when it isn't.

I'd even go a bit further and suggest that you are displaying whatI'd call passive racism (eg using the argument that other ethnic groups are more racist than white Britons as a way of having a go at them)

The only difference that I can see nowdays is that such views are largely repressed - at least vocally. And that is largely because you can be taken to court for expressing them..

Can I ask then, if people are unable to come out and directly express their dislike of ethnic groups - how might they come out with their views in a way that gets round it? Because surely that's what has to happen?

I'm not sure whether this is relative but I will post it anyway.

I work in a nursery school with a wonderfull ethinc melting pot. We just about maintain a PTA as there is such a quick turn over of parents but it has bobbed along for 5 years now supporting the school (I happen to be treasurer).

Recently we have a new recruit who is turning out to be a blatent racist, being that she has sent her child to a school with over 75% ethnic mix this is quite bewildering. This woman spouts extremely offensive comments at the meetings i.e. Discussing problematic parking - her imput is
"well its THEM isn't it , the Asians"
She started more than one comment with the immortal line
"I'm not racist but......."

She visably twitched as we discussed celebrating Diwali and then starting harping on about why don't we do anything for Halloween!!!!

The thing is, this woman has NO IDEA how offensive she is being, she is just voicing her own 'bought up' opinions, she dosn't think that she is wrong - in my eyes she is, she's offensive and ignorant.

But what do you do? Having worked with small children now for 6 years I know for a fact that racism is not an innate thing, it comes from the parents.

But what do you do? Having worked with small children now for 6 years I know for a fact that racism is not an innate thing, it comes from the parents. Cat.

Absolutely Cat, and what makes it even worse is that so many of the parents will say that it comes from the kids sitting on Grampas knee - it's not them, they aren't racist, but their parents are. :bag:

When I see little kids being openly racist, I do take it to the parents, for all the good it does me. I have had just one in several years who has admitted that their child got it from them bitching about their ethnic neighbours (very, very posh people btw, the ethnics are both eminent surgeons), and the one admitting it is a name you would all be familiar with too. However, most just pass over it or blame someone else in the family.

I have had just one in several years who has admitted that their child got it from them bitching about their ethnic neighbours (very, very posh people btw, the ethnics are both eminent surgeons).

But what if their neighbours hadn't been very very posh surgeons? WOuld that have made a difference?

No it wouldn't SF, and that's the point really. Even top professional people who have been well educated and should know better are racist, and from what I have seen, more so.

I meant it the other way round really - if I read you right you were saying that your customers were complaining about their 'ethnic' neighbours, even though their neighbours were posh surgeons. Sort of suggests that if you're a 'posh ethnic' there should be less grounds for having prejudicial comments made about you.

Trouble with that is when you see people like Chris Eubank and that Conservative guy whose name I forget on Big Brother, acting like characatures of posh Englishmen presumably as a way of gaining acceptance.

This is often something I have thought about too SF. I cringe when people talk of "The British Empire" or "British Stiff Upper Lips" ... it just sends shivers down my spine (not in a good way!) ... it just strikes a note of jingo-sim to me.

!!!! :blink:


But why? Why are we are all supposed to be ashamed of our past? It's been drummed into us by liberal middle class whites suffering from post-colonial guilt that to be proud of your country is somehow wrong?

Interesting then, these same well-meaning liberals do everything they can to encourage people who come to live here preserve their culture and history? What is the difference? Why should one culture be celebrated, but ours be somehow made shameful?

But why? Why are we are all supposed to be ashamed of our past? It's been drummed into us by liberal middle class whites suffering from post-colonial guilt that to be proud of your country is somehow wrong?



well it's just my personal feeling. I can't really put it into words very well. I just feel embarrassed especially as a lot of patriotism seems to hark back to days past, ie. British Empire, 1966 ... it just would be move relevant and somehow more seemly to boast about something more recent or relevant to today's society.

maybe I'm a middle class white suffering from post-colonial guilt and have just never realised before!

Ok...I am English by birth and if I want to celebrate St. Georges day so be it...I will with gusto...

If people who have come to live in this country do not like it then they should return to the country from whence they came. We should not lose our traditions and celebrations on account of others who are not from here originally wishing to force their belief systems on us!

I have no problem with anyone celebrating any traditional festivals they wish but they shouldn't get upset and all arsey when I and other like minded people do the same.

Equality is a two way thing and for too long now it has been moving towards one sidedness! :angry:

well it's just my personal feeling. I can't really put it into words very well. I just feel embarrassed especially as a lot of patriotism seems to hark back to days past, ie. British Empire, 1966 ... it just would be move relevant and somehow more seemly to boast about something more recent or relevant to today's society.

maybe I'm a middle class white suffering from post-colonial guilt and have just never realised before!

Maybe it's time to turn the tables on the hand-wringing polenta-eating Islington set and re-claim a bit of pride in our past and in our culture? That doesn't mean jingoism, it doesn't mean chest beating, it means accepting that, along with some mistakes, this country also has a proud history, and can continue to have a proud future, if only the ultra-left liberal metropolitan elite would stop navel gazing and trying to socially engineer us into some kind of neo-marxist, grey, re-educated conformists with a re-written history and a "culture" that has been created at a brain storming session of spin doctors.

Can I ask then, if people are unable to come out and directly express their dislike of ethnic groups - how might they come out with their views in a way that gets round it? Because surely that's what has to happen?

Well - all sorts of ways really SF. There are many different ways to express a dislike on the basis of ethnicity that don't actually involve saying anything at all.

someone with a racial predjudice may choose not to employ someone because of the colour of their skin, or not promote them further up the corporate ladder if they do employ them. Or they may shun/disown a family member who dates or marries someone of a different colour. Perhaps they attack the houses of someone of a different colour under cover ofthe night.

And this kind of racism occurs in all sectors of society, and among people of all colours.

I agree with you that the PC, liberal dictates which ban the use of certain words or imges and make certain practices illegal are done for the right reasons. Many of those directives are positive - but some of them take it too far and are simply "petty". It is the latter kind which I belive turn the tables and cause resentment to the extent that it may actually encourage racism.

I feel that since I wasn't around at the time when the British Empire was doing all the things we are still supposed to feel guilty about now, I shouldn't have to feel bad about. In fact I think for a country of our size what was achieved back then was quite remarkable even if it was a little misdirected by todays morals and beliefs of what is right and wrong.

We have much to be proud of outside of the long past pursecution (can't spell that) our ancestors inflicted on others.

We can celebrate, this year inparticular, the fact that we once had the most formidable navy in the world and the best kick butt Naval commander in history (Admiral Lord Nelson). Still to this day our armed forces, dispite their reduced numbers, are considered amongst the very best in the world.

Our ancestors went out and (although they didn't necessarily behave) discovered and charted most of the world at some point or another.

We are seen as one of the 8 most powerful countries in the world and yet compared to many we share this status with our entire land mass would barely fill a dot on many of their landscapes.

Again dispite the size of our country we have produced some of the greatest athletes & sports teams in history.

We are a country of inventors...you'd be amazed at what has been created from the dreams of the British past and present.

We are one of the largest givers of charity and aid in the world and there are still huge numbers of Brits volunteering to do service abroad to educate and treat people in the most deprived areas of the world.

I just get ticked off when people want to live in this country and then complain about all that they think ois wrong with it. If you don't like it go back to whereever it is you came from and if you are from here go find somewhere to live that you do like but remember you are already one of the most blessed people on this earth because of where you live and the opportunities that are open to you and the fact that you have freedom to express yourself and your beliefs to far broader extremes than many others in this world. You have a free health service (even if it isn't always upto some high fluting standard....it's better than many other people have)...you have access to education....you have a roof over your head and if you can't work you will not go hungry as the state will provide help. You can go to bed a night without fear of being dragged from your bed and murdered just because you hold a different set of beliefs from your neighbour or indeed your government.

This is a good country and I for one am proud to live here and will continue to celebrate national days because a it is not until people take pride in what they have that they care for it. If there was more national pride there would be less crime...less vandalism and graffiti...a shared sense of being proud of who we are 'British' first and foremost be it by birth or by choice means people will care more about the person next to them on the bus.

Yes it is a dream that we will all one day get along but a pebble produces ripples in water which spread.

Well said all of you! I agree - I want the country I was born into, that I spent hours in school studying the history of (good and bad), it's what has made us what we are. I get angry when we are told what we can and cannot do for fear of upsetting those who have come into this country by their own choice. And you know what? So do a lot of them as well. Most of these petty PC rules are thought up by bored little nerds sat in offices trying to score points, others are brought into the public eye in a ruse to cause the very racism they are supposed to be preventing. All in all, we are being set up, both nationals and immegrants, by a load of a**wipes that need to get a life.


I do not want to see our heritage dumbed down, nor our churches and schools refused to be allowed to show nativity scenes. Did you know that you will see the best and most lavish Christmas decorating done in some predominately Muslim countries?? They can show the nativity scene, and do, but oh no, not us - that is banned. Unless we do start shouting the odds we will all of us be on our knees, bums up in the air at 4am.

Actually I have no objection to that one - but not for prayers! :bag:

If you don't like it go back to whereever it is you came from and if you are from here go find somewhere to live that you do like but remember you are already one of the most blessed people on this earth because of where you live

In other words - don't bite the hand that feeds you. Bit patronising, that.

I feel that since I wasn't around at the time when the British Empire was doing all the things we are still supposed to feel guilty about now, I shouldn't have to feel bad about. In fact I think for a country of our size what was achieved back then was quite remarkable even if it was a little misdirected by todays morals and beliefs of what is right and wrong.

We have much to be proud of outside of the long past pursecution (can't spell that) our ancestors inflicted on others.

We can celebrate, this year inparticular, the fact that we once had the most formidable navy in the world and the best kick butt Naval commander in history (Admiral Lord Nelson). Still to this day our armed forces, dispite their reduced numbers, are considered amongst the very best in the world.

Our ancestors went out and (although they didn't necessarily behave) discovered and charted most of the world at some point or another.

We are seen as one of the 8 most powerful countries in the world and yet compared to many we share this status with our entire land mass would barely fill a dot on many of their landscapes.

Again dispite the size of our country we have produced some of the greatest athletes & sports teams in history.

We are a country of inventors...you'd be amazed at what has been created from the dreams of the British past and present.

We are one of the largest givers of charity and aid in the world and there are still huge numbers of Brits volunteering to do service abroad to educate and treat people in the most deprived areas of the world.

I just get ticked off when people want to live in this country and then complain about all that they think ois wrong with it. If you don't like it go back to whereever it is you came from and if you are from here go find somewhere to live that you do like but remember you are already one of the most blessed people on this earth because of where you live and the opportunities that are open to you and the fact that you have freedom to express yourself and your beliefs to far broader extremes than many others in this world. You have a free health service (even if it isn't always upto some high fluting standard....it's better than many other people have)...you have access to education....you have a roof over your head and if you can't work you will not go hungry as the state will provide help. You can go to bed a night without fear of being dragged from your bed and murdered just because you hold a different set of beliefs from your neighbour or indeed your government.

This is a good country and I for one am proud to live here and will continue to celebrate national days because a it is not until people take pride in what they have that they care for it. If there was more national pride there would be less crime...less vandalism and graffiti...a shared sense of being proud of who we are 'British' first and foremost be it by birth or by choice means people will care more about the person next to them on the bus.

Yes it is a dream that we will all one day get along but a pebble produces ripples in water which spread.

I thought that was a really good post Coastie.

In other words - don't bite the hand that feeds you. Bit patronising, that.

Not at all meant to be patronising SF....I just think people moan to much about this country and at times need reminding about what is good and great about it.

In other words - don't bite the hand that feeds you. Bit patronising, that.

I'd agree with you SF, except that I don't think she meant it that way.

Coastie has already mentioned that one of the virtues of Britain is that we have a sense of freedom of speech. So I doubt that she meant to suggest that the people of the land should not be free to complain about the things they think should be changed.

But there is a difference between people having the freedom to complain (which is OK), and the government of the land always adapting to accomodate such complaints for reasons of political correctness, which is not necessarily always OK.

Well said all of you! I agree - I want the country I was born into, that I spent hours in school studying the history of (good and bad), it's what has made us what we are.

Y'see - that is perhaps where you and I differ a bit Eternity.

I agree that we should not be held to ransom for our history (its HISTORY FFS), but I am certainly glad that the UK is no longer the country that I was born into. Because looking back to the decade of my birth I can see much that was bad about it. Neither of my parents are British born - both are immigrants to this country - and both were harrassed because of it. But even within my own memory of childohood (and I am somewhat younger than you) I can remember racism being far more widespread and accepted than it is today. I remember incidents in my day-to-day life, and I vageuly remember television programmes which celebrate and laughed at racial predjudice. It makes me somewhat sick to see old shots of them now.

I agree to an extent with SF that the social pressure to be "politically correct" has changed all that. It certainly has resulted in a number of very positive chages, and without such PC directives, we as a society would be far more tolerant of racism than we are now and it would be overcome at a much slower rate.

Where I agree with you though Eternity is that the current level of political correctness is a step too far. We as a society, have made massive inroad into conquering racism (although I still think that it can never really be totally conquered). Now is the time to stop. Leave things as they stand without introducing new directives about what we can and cannot say within society. I also agree that political correctness is now unbalanced to the extent that it is OK for a "person of colour" to be openly racist, but legally unacceptable for a white person to be so, and these days, that is wrong.

I think now is the time to let society truly integrate without government interference. Leave the legal statutes that are presently in place to protect the vulnerable against discrimination....but please, no more pointless directives!

I doubt that she meant to suggest that the people of the land should not be free to complain about the things they think should be changed.

except she was expressing the sentiment go back to where you came from if you don't like it which isn't quite what you're saying.

I feel like I should be standing to attention with Land of Hope and Glory playing in the background when i read some of these posts!

except she was expressing the sentiment go back to where you came from if you don't like it which isn't quite what you're saying.

I do not consider myself racist, but I have to admit to sometimes feeling like saying that myself!

If you are a migrant to this country, then you should be prepared to come here and accept the differences - not just the benefits - of living here. Foreign migrants are entitled to practice their religion and live by their culture (as much as they can) over here. But they cannot expect that the rest of the UK population will also do so.

If you are a migrant to this country, then you should be prepared to come here and accept the differences

Is that right though. Aren't we talking about people who have as much right as you or I to live in this country and have an equal role to play in it - rather than living on our charity? In which case the question is - do we aim to keep the status quo and let them adapt (cue strains of 'there'll always be an England') , or change our culture to accommodate the changing face of naturalised Britons.

The thing is Karen, if you go back into history you will find that the great majority of us are from migrants in one way or another, but, we have a culture that is ours, same as most other country so we aren't unique in that. Along with the rest of Europe we are predominantly Christian in many varying forms, and it annoys me that we are having to dumb down on that so we do not offend other beliefs. I myself am not a Christian, but I defend anyones right to be whatever they wish, but on a live and let live basis.


I can hazard a good guess at the sort of TV programmes you are talking of too, there were a lot in the 60's and 70's that will never see the light of day again - thankfully. I cannot begin to understand what many people living here will have suffered, and I am sorry to hear you were one of those.

We do need a balance, both us and the immegrants where we can live together amicably, but how that will come about I don't know, there are too many pratts with one brain cell trying to make a mockery of us all.

This dumbing down - is it a bit like the dumbing down of the language, especially with Americanisms - that so many people dislike?

The thing is, our language is not set in stone, and changes over time to adapt to the way people use it. There is no 'correct' language or set use of words, but rather a melting pot that is fluid.

May it not have to be the same with our culture? that it changes and adapts to reflect the people who live in it. Like it or not there is a high immigrant population in this country, and in the same way that our language has to change, perhaps it isn't unreasonable that our culture too must change, and part of that might mean doing away with things that at one time were unchallangeable, but in the light of our new society might be seen as redundant?

Is that right though. Aren't we talking about people who have as much right as you or I to live in this country and have an equal role to play in it - rather than living on our charity? In which case the question is - do we aim to keep the status quo and let them adapt (cue strains of 'there'll always be an England') , or change our culture to accommodate the changing face of naturalised Britons.

Well - I dunno SF really. That I suppose is the crux of the matter. Is Britian still a Christian country, or is it truly multi-denominational?

I wasns't, by the way - suggesting that people should live in the "charity" of Britian. Nationalised Britians are nationalised - but there are still religious and cutlural differences to contend with. The practicing of different religions is easily overcome - no-one objectg to Jews Building Synagogues or Muslims Building Mosques or Catholics building churches etc. nd no-one objects to Muslims women wearing full dress or Jewish guys wearing skull caps and ringlets (if othordox).

But where do you draw the line? Schooling - in my mind - is easy. If Muslims want separate schools where their dress code is tolerated and their religious practices are accomodated, then they should do as the Catholics and Jewish in this country have done for decades.....their churches should accumulate funds and apply to the government for Charitable donations so that they can build religious denominational schools where their personal religion should take precedence. However, I do not tink it is acceptable that they enter their children into State run CoE schools and expect that their dress code and religious practices be honoured in that venue.

SF - I'll be honest. Your comments are food for thought. I guess I speak from the viewpoint of someone who still believes that Britian is a Christian country. Am I right though? As more migrants of different cultures becomes nationals is that the case? But ultimately, no matter what the heritage of a countries people, there must be some common boundary. Some commonality of law and practise which suits the majority.

What, these days, is our majority?

Tell you what SF, when I see the local Muslim community dumbing down then maybe, just maybe we would be happier to do so as well. Right now though it all seems to be one way traffic, and that scares the hell out of me as I know where this could all lead.


As for the English Language, well, I have no problems with Americanisms coming into it, though I can't for the life of me understand why we have adopted their pronunciations on words like Nuclear. There's also a lot of Ozzieisms creeping in and they too are OK (ish).

I know where this could all lead..

where do you think it could lead?

To more violence and hatred than you or I would wish to see. Try it in reverse, telling the immegrants they have to integrate totally with the British way of life and imagine the outcome. Civil rights groups would have a field day - yet we have no civil rights, we are not an ethnic minority are we?

Well, not yet anyway.

except she was expressing the sentiment go back to where you came from if you don't like it which isn't quite what you're saying.

Indeed to some extent I was SF....but only in light of the fact that some people come here (and this is a vast minority) and then moan and complain about what they see as wrong in this country. Surely if they have chosen to come here (many having past through numerous other countries to get here) they should accept the country for what it is and not be surprised when it doesn't have a pot of gold and the perfect life waiting for them when they get here.

People who were born here and moan....I say freedom of speech is a good thing however, just moaning about stuff will not get things changed. People who have a genuine grievance should work hard to put their case forward, conjure up support, it's when the masses speak that things happen (poll tax etc)...however much of what people moan about in this country is petty in comparision to what people from other countries less well off than ours have to put up with and to them I say, get over it or get out!

the issue of schools...if you send your child to a C of E school then don't be surpirsed when they celebrate christian festivals. The reasons why people celebrate their beliefs, whatever their denomination, is because it is just that, their beliefs, they are not doing it to shout that the person who doesn't believe is wrong or and idiot. They are doing it because it brings them joy and they are honoring the God in which they believe. No-one who celebrates a religious festival is looking to insult anyone which is why I think that banning the likes of the school nativity is totally wrong!

May it not have to be the same with our culture? that it changes and adapts to reflect the people who live in it. Like it or not there is a high immigrant population in this country, and in the same way that our language has to change, perhaps it isn't unreasonable that our culture too must change, and part of that might mean doing away with things that at one time were unchallangeable, but in the light of our new society might be seen as redundant?


But this is not a slow, gradual evolutionary change, is it? This is rapid fragmentation, a country with many cultures and no single, unifying one which can bind us all together.

This is exactly the fear of Trevor Phillips, no less, the Commission for Racial Equality boss, who has admitted that the sacred god of the liberal left elite, multiculturalism, is a social experiment which is failing the very people it is supposed to help.

Have a chew on this, from a recent speech he gave......

"We need to be a nation of many colours that combine to create a single rainbow.
Yes, that does mean recognising diversity and rejecting assimilation. But I believe we are in danger of throwing out the integrationist baby along with the assimilationist bathwater. In recent years we’ve focused far too much on the ‘multi’ and not enough on the common culture. We’ve emphasized what divides us over what unites us. We have allowed tolerance of diversity to harden into the effective isolation of communities, in which some people think special separate values ought to apply."

Trevor Phillips is talking common sense, and echoing what many many people in this country.....black..white...whatever colour.....think.

Which is why the lefty neo-marxists already have the knives out for him....oh dear..can't have a CRE chief going off message...can we??

Well a problem there is how on earth do you begin to find something that is common to such diverse cultures . And add to that the fact that the most vague and ill defined of the lot is the British one.

Is it really the case that 'multi' culturalism as opposed to 'common' culturalism is sch a bad thing? - particularly if a common culture is a pipedream. Does 'multi' really have to mean a schizoid state of affairs ?

I think it simply comes down to a matter of respect. If one person is willing to respect another persons beliefs then that person should also respect theirs.

If a school declares itself as a particualr type of school which holds a set of beliefs then anyone who wishes to send their children there should accept the fact that certain religious festivals will be celebrated in the same way that others will not be recognised there.

Out side of that in regular day to day issues...if a person wishes to pray at set times of day because it is in their religion to do so then so be it but on the same ticket if another person wishes to celebrate Christmas by wearing a santa hat (although this is not a religious artifact) that to should be respected by the person who does not wish to celebrate Christmas.

Provided no-one is forcing people of different faiths to take part in festivals that they do not wish to recognise there really should not be a problem.

But then not all the problems are relating to religious befliefs.

This thread was started because someone decided that others may find people celebrating St. Georges day offensive. This is a national day for the English and as such if English people wich to celebrate this Saints day people who do not should quietly respect that and realise that it's not people wanting to insult them it's people wanting to celebrate their country. No-one kicks off about St. Andrews day or St. Davids day or St. Patricks day so why should they get so upstarted about St. Georges day. It's a chance to celebrate what's good and great about our country.

(Dol...you can stand and sing now!)

This thread was started because someone decided that others may find people celebrating St. Georges day offensive.

Er ... not quite!

Er ... not quite!

Oh ...I guess I interpreted it differently...ho well!

Well - like you say, you can interpret a story like this in different ways. Like - it might be seen as an attempt to prevent the display of a potentially provocative symbol in a place where racial tensions are high (that's the way I see it) or it might be seen as an attempt to stop people celebrating St George's Day (that's the way you see it). Same story - different takes on it.

I just feel that if people have sought asylm and gained citizenship they shouldn't have a problem with the country of their choice celebrating their saints day....surely racial tension should be diminished as at the end of the day whoever carries a British passport is British and shouldn't be offended by anything British but rather embrass it as part of their newly aquired heritage.

I just feel that if people have sought asylm and gained citizenship they shouldn't have a problem with the country of their choice celebrating their saints day....surely racial tension should be diminished as at the end of the day whoever carries a British passport is British and shouldn't be offended by anything British but rather embrass it as part of their newly aquired heritage.

Generally I would agree with you Coastie, but with regard to the St Georges Flag, I think that - in this instance - your viewpoint is slightly idealistic.

I agree that if a person has sought asylum and wants to be a British National, then they should be prepared to intregrate into the culture and embrace "all things British" (or at least not complain about them) - but the subject of the St Geroge Flag is a slightly grey area.

Yes, it is a symbol of the Engish Patron Saint but, as a Nation, we have never celebrated his feast day (at least not in my living memory). However, the St George flag has been dragged out on numerous ocassions as an "English Symbol" by fascist groups like the BNP and the National Front, and as a result of that, the flag itself has become tainted as a symbol of racism. (In actual fact, when I was a kid, I didn't even realise that the St Georges Flag was the English Flag - I actually thought it was the flag of racists! :ohmy: )

Therefore, displaying such a symbol in a prison - however innocently - is likely to upset the inmates who have been affected by racism. Which is a fair majority I'd say.

Maybe then it is time for the non-racist to claim back the flag of our country.....the more people that wear it from whatever race or creed the less right the racist amongst us have to it as a symbol of whats wrong with this country.

I say wear the flag with pride and share that sense of pride with all you meet so people learn that it is the countries flag not the BNP and friends!

Maybe then it is time for the non-racist to claim back the flag of our country.....the more people that wear it from whatever race or creed the less right the racist amongst us have to it as a symbol of whats wrong with this country.

I say wear the flag with pride and share that sense of pride with all you meet so people learn that it is the countries flag not the BNP and friends!

Spot on! Why is it only England though? None of the other UK countries have this problem, but, they are way more patriotic than the English. Maybe it's time to fly the flag and show pride in it with the original intention of it.

Maybe then it is time for the non-racist to claim back the flag of our country.....the more people that wear it from whatever race or creed the less right the racist amongst us have to it as a symbol of whats wrong with this country.

I say wear the flag with pride and share that sense of pride with all you meet so people learn that it is the countries flag not the BNP and friends!

Well yes, I absolutely agree. In fact, I said something similar in an earlier post when I stated that the way to overcome such associations with racism was to fly the flag in a non-racist environment.

But I also said that I didn't think a prison was actually a non-racist environment. In fact, it has been proven that prisons are hotbeds of racism of bullying.

So yes, flying the flag in a non-racist way is a good thing. But doing it in a prison - at this point in time - is sheer madness and likely to just upset people who associate the image with negative experiences.

Just my opinion.

I just hate the thought that a handfull of mindless thugs could lead to my being deprived the right to fly my countries flag. Surely the powers that be should start to realise that the racists who hide behind the flag are far fewer than those of us who want to fly the flag because we love our country and all its diversity. It would be letting the ignorant minority win if it was decided no-one could fly the George Cross in public!

Spot on! Why is it only England though? None of the other UK countries have this problem, but, they are way more patriotic than the English. Maybe it's time to fly the flag and show pride in it with the original intention of it.

But to do that means you have to know what it means to be English, and nobody in England has a clue what that means these days, apart from a fond memory of some bygone idyll of fair play, policemen on bicycles, cucumber sandwiches on the lawn, and beating Johnny Foreigner at cricket.


Afterthought - even back in those days being English and being British blurred into one and the same thing so it was difficult to separate the two. May I ask Eternity what she actually means by a sense of being English today, and what the English flag (as opposed to the British one) signifies to her.

But to do that means you have to know what it means to be English, and nobody in England has a clue what that means these days, apart from a fond memory of some bygone idyll of fair play, policemen on bicycles, cucumber sandwiches on the lawn, and beating Johnny Foreigner at cricket.

I disagree. I think most people have a sense of their "culture" - however ill defined. And I don't think for most people these days it has much to do at all with cucumber sandwiches, village cricket, and PC Plod. Thats just a dated sterotype akin to "The Archers" and no-one really believes that culture exists any more.

To me, words that define "Englishness" these days are democracy, bureaucracy, drink culture, football, Rugby, Cricket, queues, tolerance, opportunity, capitalism, Cockneys, Geordies, Scoucers etc. beautiful countryside, declining farming industry, hunting, Royalty, Aristocracy. I could go on, but it'd be boring reading.........

It is true to say that Britain and England are irrevocably intertwined, but each of the separate countries in Britain have their own separate histories and their own separate sense of indentity. Its not as if it is only England that has become multicultural - Scotland and Wales and have too. The difference is that Scotland and Wales are encouraged to maintain a strong sense of National Pride and therefore do so. The English are actively discouraged from it.

There is much that is wrong with England and the Britain in general - but then no country is perfect. But by the same token there are things to be proud of (read Coastie earlier patriotic post). But to say that England has totally lost any sense of identity is wrong, I think. Its just frowned upon to display any pride in it.

To me, words that define "Englishness" these days are democracy, bureaucracy, drink culture, football, Rugby, Cricket, queues, tolerance, opportunity, capitalism, Cockneys, Geordies, Scoucers etc. beautiful countryside, declining farming industry, hunting, Royalty, Aristocracy. I could go on, but it'd be boring reading.........

Maybe that's one of the problems - it's boring reading, nothing to capture the interest or imagination.

By the way KH you say the English are actively discouraged from showing a pride in their country. Who is discouraging them and how please? Are you personally unable to show pride in your country because someone is stopping you?

Well SF, what is so exciting about other countries national fervour then?


When I think of England, I think of tiny villages with thatched roofs, the Lake District, The Yorkshire Moors and Dales, cities like York and Chester, real English ales and cheeses, the theatres in London, the Proms, the Castles, the classic English Pub and the diversity of the people with all their accents and foibles. England has it's own uniqueness, it's where you want to come home to when you have been travelling.

Hell, I could write a book on the good and bad things that make England a one off!

That sounds great - so what's stopping you from celebrating it then?

Nothing - did I say I didn't?

Oh, I thought you'd suggested there was some problem with being able to celebrate a sense of national pride, for instance when you said


Spot on! Why is it only England though? None of the other UK countries have this problem, but, they are way more patriotic than the English. Maybe it's time to fly the flag and show pride in it with the original intention of it.

Wre you talking about literally flying the England flag?

even so, I don't think anyone is stopping you or me from putting up an England flag if we want to.

By the way KH you say the English are actively discouraged from showing a pride in their country. Who is discouraging them and how please? Are you personally unable to show pride in your country because someone is stopping you?

SF - sometimes it is not possible to express a "feeling" or "sense" in simple Boolean, black v white terms.

Of course, there is no one person or event that actively prevents people from expressing a pride in their nation. Its more a gentle, institutional discouragement - a pressure over a period of time - which provides a sense that it is forbidden. I can't express exactly why, but I feel vaguely uncomfortable with saying "I'm British/English and I'm proud of it". I feel as if that very statement would leave me judged by some as racist, although I'm not. In truth, I think you would probably label me as a closet racist for saying such a thing.

Why that is the case though, I cannot answer in a simple way. Its a sense - but that does not stop it being a fact. Perhaps it is because such latitudes have long been the chants of genuinely racist groups, but somehow I feel that, in our attempts to counteract such hatred, we as a Nation have shyed away from patriotism.

However, just because I cannot point the finger at and specify how and why does not stop it from being true.

"I'm British/English and I'm proud of it". I feel as if that very statement would leave me judged by some as racist, although I'm not. In truth, I think you would probably label me as a closet racist for saying such a thing.
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No, I wouldn't. If you feel a sense of pride in being British or English that's fine isn't it.

Personally, I find it difficult to understand the need to identify with one's country. Possibly that's because I don't feel myself a real sense of 'being English'. But more than that, why should someone want to identify with an arbitrary geographical piece of land? Perhaps it's more than just that - perhaps it's also something to do with a state of mind. Or maybe a need to belong to something that is greater than one's immediate circle of family and friends. But if it's that, why identify with a country? Why not a church, an organisation - or, if you're thinking geographically, why not Europe or even the world?

Personally, I find it difficult to understand the need to identify with one's country. Possibly that's because I don't feel myself a real sense of 'being English'. But more than that, why should someone want to identify with an arbitrary geographical piece of land? Perhaps it's more than just that - perhaps it's also something to do with a state of mind. Or maybe a need to belong to something that is greater than one's immediate circle of family and friends. But if it's that, why identify with a country? Why not a church, an organisation - or, if you're thinking geographically, why not Europe or even the world?

Gosh SF - I don't know. I think it is human nature to an extent to feel a sense of territory, and also to feel part of a wider group. But I think it runs deeper than that - I think it is about heritage, birth, roots and culture. People sometimes need a sense of where they came from, so it is more than a mere "arbitrary" piece of land mass.

In truth, I regard myself as British rather than English, but my need for Nationalsim is somewhat watered down by the fact that neither of my parents are British. I was born in Britain and culturally, I am British, yet my roots are from other countries - different ones at that! Yet sometimes I have wished that I could feel the passion and love that I see Scots, or Italians, Australians or South Americans display for their countries. It would be lovely to feel that same sense of pride and unity.

You ask "Why identify with a Country?", but I would ask "Why not?".

You ask "Why identify with a Country?", but I would ask "Why not?".

I think one reason is that nationalism is the precursor to racism, although I know you disagree with that.

I think one reason is that nationalism is the precursor to racism, although I know you disagree with that.

Well, I don't necessarily disagree - I can see where you're coming from when you say that. Its the old "tribal" mentality and I think that exists everywhere and anywhere, no matter what the level of nationalism. You see it here in the UK between different sectors of the African community and between different caste members of the Asian population.

However, I don't think that being proud of your country means that you must automatically hate people from other countries.

I couldn't, in all honesty, state that nationalism and racism are mutually exclusive. But then neither could I say that the two are irrevocably intertwined.

I suppose for me, any -ism, including Nationalism, is something to be wary of.

with any -ism, you forego your individual way of thinking, take on a mantle of group behaviour, and end up speaking and behaving in cliches.

Maybe if you shrink it down SF...

Are you proud of your family?

Does being proud of your family make you hate other families?

In the same way just because I am proud of my country doesn't mean I dislike other countries or the people who come from them. I just feel that there is an increasing pressure for those of us who love England to keep or emotions in check....a local taxi firm was told they couldn't fly flags in support of England in the Rugby World Cup as others might find it offensive....If I fly my countries flag from a pole in the back garden I have been told (personal experience) that I should be careful as people might find this offensive....Why? I am just showing that I love my country I am not saying I hate everyone and everywhere else!

Maybe if you shrink it down SF...

Are you proud of your family?

Does being proud of your family make you hate other families?

In the same way just because I am proud of my country doesn't mean I dislike other countries or the people who come from them.!

You know, I'm staring to wonder what this 'being proud' is really all about. Am I proud of my family? YOu would think I'd have to say 'yes' wouldn't you? - but then I ask myself would I use the word 'proud' - because suddenly it seems to denote something self-ish. proud simply because they are mine?

LIke you and England. Sure, you might enjoy living there, like the countryside, people, food, whatever it is that makes it special for you. But why use the word 'proud'. It would seem odd if you said you were proud of France, but why should you be any more 'proud' of England than you are of France?

Because I was born here SF and this country feels part of me....maybe I am just a more sentimental person than you but I love the eccentricities of this country...

I love the way we give give directions by pub names (something unique to us)...

I love our optimism in the national sports events even if we don't have a proven record...yes its a little daft that we still go on about 1966 and the world cup but it's that sort of thing that makes us different from other countries and I like that....

I like that I you can be in a bustling city one minute and open country side the next and still feel like I belong...

I love the fact that we have such a rich and mixed heritage and history....

I love our language and all its diversity as it's been created from a hundered different tongues over the centuries...

I like the weather...the cars...the television....

I'm sure if I was born in another country I would feel the same about that place but for all my travels it's England that will always be home to me...

I have freinds that have travelled to other countries and as soon as they have set foot on that countries turf they have felt at home dispite not being born there...several have left to go live in these places and are wonderfully happy..I couldn't do that.

You know, I'm staring to wonder what this 'being proud' is really all about. Am I proud of my family? YOu would think I'd have to say 'yes' wouldn't you? - but then I ask myself would I use the word 'proud' - because suddenly it seems to denote something self-ish. proud simply because they are mine?


I'd hesitate to say that you are splitting hairs here SF, but I certainly think that when it comes to examining the use of individual words in a post that you are perhaps over analysing the message. But as you've gone and done that, I'd think that when people say that they want to be "proud" in this context it is just a way of expressing the fact that they would like to belong to something that they feel is impressive and desirable.

Maybe you aren't proud of your family, as such, but I'd take an intelligent guess that you care about them, love them and wish the best for them. I'd also hazard a guess that you would welcome the chance to be proud of them if you could.

Using Coastie's analogy of family, I'd guess thats the way some people would like to feel about the country they live in. Even if that country isn't actually impressive and desirable enough to make them feel pride, they want to feel that everyone living there cares enough to hope that one day it will be!

Not trying to split hairs, just trying to understand the sentiment. Thinking about it I guess there's a difference between pride in one's country and nationalism, with patriotism floating somewhere in the middle. Mind you, there must be some blurry boundaries between them. I guess having pride in your country is OK, but I think nationalism is definitely dodgy.