'New' Additives in Bread [Archive]

Northern angel

06-04-2006, 06:03 PM

I am referring to the news story regarding the possible addition of Folic Acid to milled flour and bread, to cut down on birth defects caused by a lack of folates in early pregnancy.

They have been adding Folic Acid to breads and flour in Canada and the States since 1998, and apparently birth defects have dropped by 48% [birth defects such as Spina Bifida].

Presently Thiamin and Niacin are added to commercially produced bread and cereals in the UK.

Are you comfortable with this?

I am not as it happens. I can understand the reasoning behind possible mass medication of the population with folates, but as I understand it can mask defecencies of Vit B12 in the elderly, whch can lead to complications. But it is not just this fact that I am not comfortable it is the Big Brother approach to this sort of problem.

It doesn't do us any harm if we take it and we are either men or non-pregnant women [unless we are elderly and have a Vit B12 deficency] - I just don't like the idea of taking something that I don't need.

What are your thoughts to mass medication - whether you like it or not?

Hello flip,

Sometimes I think we have allowed manufacturers to lose there senses. We are now all guinea pigs for whatever concoctions they give us. Today's bread is literally sh!t. Doughy or aireated tasteless nothing. Coming from such a wonderful region as Northumberland bread should be full of flavour and quite heavy. Why? Simply because it used to be staple part of our diet, the staff of life. The whiter the bread to sooner your dead kind of thing.

Has anyone ever eaten a slice of real bread?

Having a slice of real bread spread with butter just churned or dripping or bacon fat was absolutely delicious and fulfilling. I ask you where can we get this today. What super market makes bread in the instore bakery this tasty, none that I've ever come across. The smell is still there but that's where it ends. The only decent bread I've eaten is when I have taken a day to make several loaves and rolls myself. They freeze well to.

Even Greggs stotty cakes is no longer the chewy heavy tasty bread it used to be, and there buns are so light you need two and not one for a packed lunch.

A ploughmans lunch used to be a chunk or thick slice of homemade bread, a doorstop piece of cheese and maybe a thick carved slice of home cooked ham, with a whole tomato some homemade chutney or pickle, you can forget the greens. But remember there was always an apple for dessert, probably a braeburn or coxes pippin.This ploughmans lunch literally was a lunch not a wee snack in the middle of a working man's day.

Bread. When bread did have nought taken out it was very good for you. In fact the diet many of today's pensioners owe there lives to today, is that of their childhood it gave them a strong constitution. Hence there will be many more of the 1910 - 1930's generation living on to a grand old age.

Issues around the alternatively able were very few, statistics such as they were would be incomplete. Suffice it to say that the good old days and the bad old days, is very much dependent on your perspective. But look at the numbers surviving into old age and ask your yourself did diet have anything to do with it.

Bring back tasty and nutritious bread.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Northern angel

06-04-2006, 06:15 PM

Nanny state in its most arrogant form.

Hello Groucho,

I agree.

Maureen
Northern angel.

gatubela

13-04-2006, 02:51 PM

Can I throw a slightly different perspective in?

I was looking at the trend in nutritional values of foods some time back, and modern farming methods are effectively removing a lot of the nutrition that used to be in our foods. eg the humble carrot. Apparantly, carrots carry less than half as much nutrition these days as in our parents day, due to various reasons, all to do with the soil use and farming methods etc etc

So. If they are able, and start to put the nutrition back in that they have effectively taken out, is that bad?

I am giving up on the idea that people should be trusted to know what is best for them, and to make their own decisions. The crowd of pregnant smokers outside my maternity ward every day in the UK gives testament. Baby growing in them, but high fat/carb and low nutrition diets, hmmm, wonder why that baby had such a low birthweight! It isn't rare, its endemic. Do we continue to allow the ignorant (growing numbers of) to punish the unborn, or try subtle methods to help those innocent unborns (adding folic acid to bread eg).

Just a contrarian view. Discuss.

gatubela

13-04-2006, 03:06 PM

oh, just remembered, I was staying on an organic farm in NZ not long ago. Two things amazed me. The taste of the carrots, and the taste of the strawberries!

I could snack on the raw carrots all day, they were so yummy.

Tesco carrots? Just force feeding myself with what I believe is good for me. Bland, no enjoyment. Any wonder mcdonalds is taking over the world.

And US strawberries? Yuk. I don't know, but suspect the NZ things I was eating were very good for me, but it was no effort as they were so yummy.

Then I got to think of how those apples and gooseberries used to taste when I was a youngster. They don't taste the same any more. Its not nostalgia as the stuff in NZ tasted like I remembered when I was a toddler. Something has changed!

survivorfan

13-04-2006, 06:29 PM

I think it's a good idea, and the government should be rapped for taking so long over making it law - lives are being lost as a result.

I don't agree with the argument that people should take folic acid themselves instead. It's been shown that one in 3 people forget to take pills on a regular basis. It can be argued that many people who will be affected are from a part of society (underprivileged, poorly educated) where folic acid awareness is non-existent.

Oh - you can't get folic acid from vegetables as cooking kills it off.

So I say welcome it - to save lives.

Groucho

13-04-2006, 07:07 PM

Northern angel

13-04-2006, 11:18 PM

Hello gatubela,

That's how food should taste in the first place. Good quality food is nutritious. Poor quality food is mass produced and too cheap.

SF, you know when you consider that supplements and folic acid are made readily available on prescription to pregnant women and it is free, there really is no excuse for adding additions to the bread. Vitamin B group deficienciences can be masked by such additions so on the whole it's not good for the rest of us.

On the subject of education and the underpriviledged, this is going to sound absolutely horrendous but if educational, nutritional services are available to people absolutely free from there medical centres and midwives, it is surely up to those individuals to realise that here is an opportunity to grab by the horns to attempt to strenthen their forthcoming offspring's health and it is up to them to take it.

Pardon and forgiveness hopefully for my arrogance in stating this, but if they don't want it, its not our fault. If they'd rather have unhealthy kids and shorten the lifespan why should the rest of us always be made to feel responsible. We have to accept that sometimes people do not always make the right choices and we can ever hope to do is provide the education and the means to take advantage of the ways to self improvement.

The same argument or similar had been used before I know, but it should be a question of making an informed choice.

Maureen
Northern angel.

survivorfan

14-04-2006, 08:23 AM

SF, you know when you consider that supplements and folic acid are made readily available on prescription to pregnant women and it is free, there really is no excuse for adding additions to the bread. Vitamin B group deficienciences can be masked by such additions so on the whole it's not good for the rest of us.

Just to correct something in the thread - what is being considered is adding folic acid to flour - some foods in the UK, such as bread, breakfast cereals and margarine, already contain added folic acid.

Maureen, in reply to you, spinal defects like spina bifida happen very early in pregnancy, often before the woman knows she is pregnant. Given that half of pregnancies are unplanned, and that a large percentage of women taking folic acid supplements don't do it properly anyway, encouraging women to take supplements isn't going to prevent neural tube defects.

WIth regard to Vitamin B deficiency, I don't know how serious a problem it wold be, but at least you would weigh up the pros and cons before deciding. The figures I have seen on the one side suggest that 900 pregnancies a year are affected by spina bifida, a third of which end in termination, and a half of which could be prevented. I have seen no figures about the effect of Vitamin B deficiencies to balance the equation.

WHile the government is dragging its heels, worried about the nanny state label, lives are being destroyed. In countries like Canada where folic acid has been added to flour there has been a drop in the incidence of neural tube defects of up to 50%.

survivorfan

14-04-2006, 10:36 AM

Hmmmm.

I cant agree SF, I'm afraid.

I tend to take the view that we should look to strengthen the overall gene pool.

It might be a harsh view to suggest that the weakest in society dont add anything to the gene pool, but it's kind of how civilisation arrived where it is today.

I'm not sure that carrying everybody is necessarily the way to continue moving forward.

Would you prefer that a child suffers from a debilitating condition that can be prevented, in order to satisfy your need not to be nannied?

And isn't it the case that many people who have grown to be valuable members of society came from poor backgrounds of the kind we're talking about, many of whom have risen above the sort of weakness you're referring to.

Bob

14-04-2006, 12:28 PM

SF, you know when you consider that supplements and folic acid are made readily available on prescription to pregnant women and it is free, there really is no excuse for adding additions to the bread. Vitamin B group deficienciences can be masked by such additions so on the whole it's not good for the rest of us.

I'm probably just echoing what SF says here but given that many women don't even know they are pregnant till after the sixth week folic acid on prescription (free or otherwise) doesn't make any difference inpreventing neaural tube defects as the neural tubes close at the end of the sixth week. Six weeks pregnant is in most cases actually only 4 weeks after conception but that is just the way it's calculated. Many women do start taking it then as it is advised up to 12 weeks as also important in brain development

Folic acid is available in alot of breakfast cereals (albeit in small quantities) but apart from green veg (which is usually over cooked and therefore worthless) there are very few foods that contain it that are widely consumed.

I think a small addition in a wide variety of foods would be excellent.
I'm not saying put the whole 400 micro grams in a few slices of bread but as in breakfast cereals 75-100 ug per 100g in a wide variety of foods would be in my view acceptable.

gatubela

14-04-2006, 01:26 PM

I tend to take the view that we should look to strengthen the overall gene pool.

It might be a harsh view to suggest that the weakest in society dont add anything to the gene pool, but it's kind of how civilisation arrived where it is today.

I'm not sure that carrying everybody is necessarily the way to continue moving forward.

Please excuse me Groucho, I'm going to be a little roghish here just for the sake of making it interesting.

But I once heard an argument that sterilising poorer elements of society in the US would strengthen the gene pool, as the poorer less intelligent members of society were out-breeding the richer more enlightened, and to strengthen the gene pool, we should actively reduce the breeding in the less intelligent. I make no comment on this, and invite no other comment, but just want to mention some of the other views on "how to strenghten the gene pool".

In the "good 'ol days" (sarcasm), the weaker and damaged died or were killed off, which was nature's and a harsher, more backward society's answer to how we got where we are right now. More Darwinian.

I agree people can't be forcefed nutrition, and if they ignore all the good advice, let them eat crip and die early - their choice. I just wonder if we don't have a responsibility to the unborns to protect them from the parents bad life choices. Adding folic acid to flour sounds like a pretty non-invasive act, and lives will be saved. Why not? Don't forget mothers should be taking it before getting pregnant, so the observation that mothers don't know they are pregnant till 6 weeks in is a little irrelevant. me? I'd strap 'em all down and force feed them veggies and fruit for the whole 9 months - then chain them to a drip-feed and force them to breast feed for a year. THEN they can go back to mcdonalds. Much stronger gene pool!

Northern angel

15-04-2006, 02:27 AM

I am going to be a really awkward so and so.

As our foods today are highly processed there nutritional value is questionable. Those foods essential to staple diet are aggressively grown and treated with fertilisers which leave residues in the raw product. Taste has literally been grown out of the food as has any goodness.

In balance it has already been mentioned that the good old days resulted in early infant mortality alongside the awful practice of selection and seperation. Aspects mentioned not desirable in a civilised society. In saying this we must not rule out that there were other common causes for death, some related to the employment people had, inhaling highly poluted air in industrialised cities, living in filthy overcrowded conditions and breathing stale air in dark roomed towns. The shopping list from a person in the 1850's would have been a far cry from that of today. Mrs Beetons cookbook would only have been of any use to those households who could afford to employ servants.

In the countryside infant mortality was lower and the un polluted open landscape is suggestive that the reason for longevity and the difference in the age of death was due to the much improved environment. These are all areas of the town and country debate.

In more recent times say the 1950's, the demographic changes that had taken place during the war were changed back. Women were returned to the kitchen cooking, baking, raising there families whilst the men went out to work, those who had survived the war went back to there old jobs, and local authorities saw fit to build new homes fit for heroes.

The food served up in a 1950's household was good for you and nutritious.The fifties decade also saw the arrival of convenience foods in larger amounts. Fast foods however the Mcdees fix was unheard of. Farmers were not practicing aggressive agricultural practices as land which had been allocated other uses during the war still remained under government direction.
Subsidies existed for not using land. Subsidies existed for not utilising full Dairy herd or sheep quotas. Rationing still existed until 1956, and each year something ceased to be rationed until aproximately 1964/66. As the health of the nation improved longevity was soon to be an issue, not whether someone's child was born with a disability or not. The British medical service also have never been keen on the idea of abortion even where a feotus was reported to have an abnormality. Instead unlike some of our European neighbours children born with a defect found themselves institutionalised, in the same way normal children born to umarried women were.

I did say I was going to be an awkward so and so and I will tell you now, I don't accept this Darwinian theory of survival of the fittest or strongest.
I do think education is the way ahead. But you know already what I feel on that score.

I do not think its a good idea to medicate all of us.

I said earlier that introducing folic acid into the flour used for making bread is a bad thing because of the effects on the Vit B group, I could be specific and say its vitamin B12.

So how is Vitamin B lost,

The body does not store vitamin b. It needs regular replenishment.
Vitamin b dissolves in water, so cooking sometimes is a cause of loss.
Food processing, milling wheat to produce white flour lowers thiacin and nicotinic acid.
milling and extracting bran and the germ from rice removes thiacin.
Cereals which have undergone complicated processing methods have been stripped of nutritional value.
Canned meats contain fewer vitamins than home cooked.
Light destroys roboflavin in bottled milk.

Deficiency related diseases.

Beriberi a disease of white rice eating countries.characterised by oedema swelling. In there serious forms , beriberi affects the central nervous system. infantile beriberi comes from children born to thiacin deficient mothers.
Pellagra is caused by nicotinic deficiency, this is prevalent in countries whose staple diet is based upon maize, large areas of Africa ,South America, India and europe. For both these ailments diet is the answer. Especially meat containing trytophan which the body can turn into niacin.
Pernicious Anaemia is a disease which occurs in people who lack the ability to absorb and use Vit B12, Vegans who shun milk, eggs, meat and fish are at risk here. B12 is available by injection or by eating raw liver.
Dry skin and sores is caused by a deficiency of riboflavin.

If folic acid is directly given to a specific group of people it can prove beneficial. Specifically for at least one month prior to conception and a further 12 weeks after conception. Folic acid comes with the addition of Iron and Selenium in tablet form. It has been proven to reduce neural tube defects, red blood cell disorders being essential to its development as more are required by the pregnant woman to aid nourishment of the feotus. Without Folic acid, the risks are toxaemia, premature birth, haemorrhaging, and in few cases Spina Bifida. How consistent the evidence of this is still an issue today as medical research prior to 1998 is more favourable of a defective and inherited gene.

When the medical professionals that be are divided on the exact cause, I would rather they didn't medicate the nation. Instead they should proceed to educate pregnant women about the virtues of there greens and the taking of supplements. Unless of course it is a population reduction stunt to reduce the number of pensioners living who would affected by other ailments as a result of adding folic acid to bread.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Northern angel

15-04-2006, 02:45 AM

Please excuse me Groucho, I'm going to be a little roghish here just for the sake of making it interesting.

But I once heard an argument that sterilising poorer elements of society in the US would strengthen the gene pool, as the poorer less intelligent members of society were out-breeding the richer more enlightened, and to strengthen the gene pool, we should actively reduce the breeding in the less intelligent. I make no comment on this, and invite no other comment, but just want to mention some of the other views on "how to strenghten the gene pool".

In the "good 'ol days" (sarcasm), the weaker and damaged died or were killed off, which was nature's and a harsher, more backward society's answer to how we got where we are right now. More Darwinian.

I agree people can't be forcefed nutrition, and if they ignore all the good advice, let them eat crip and die early - their choice. I just wonder if we don't have a responsibility to the unborns to protect them from the parents bad life choices. Adding folic acid to flour sounds like a pretty non-invasive act, and lives will be saved. Why not? Don't forget mothers should be taking it before getting pregnant, so the observation that mothers don't know they are pregnant till 6 weeks in is a little irrelevant. me? I'd strap 'em all down and force feed them veggies and fruit for the whole 9 months - then chain them to a drip-feed and force them to breast feed for a year. THEN they can go back to mcdonalds. Much stronger gene pool!

Hello gatubela,

You've been watching to much Japaneese television or is it Chris Tarrant with those foreign suggestive TV blunders? So who are you recruiting from the forum to strap them down? Who is going to do the force feeding - no don't tell me, is it going to be the S And M instructor or the Opera singer to Chain them to a drip feed and then to force them to breast feed for a year. Wow. Released finally to invade Mcdonalds.

:yahoo: :laugh:

Of course they can only do this wearing tight red or black pvc? :thumbsup:

Maureen
Northern angel.

gatubela

15-04-2006, 04:56 AM

So who are you recruiting from the forum to strap them down? Who is going to do the force feeding - Maureen
Northern angel.

That'll me me and you Mo! Not sure how you will look in the pvc shorts, but black is my colour and quietly confident I will look sufficiently like the nurse in OFOT Cuckoo's Nest. I'll pay you off from my secret stash of NZ strawberries....

survivorfan

15-04-2006, 08:17 AM

they should proceed to educate pregnant women about the virtues of there greens and the taking of supplements.

Unfortunately folic acid is destroyed when greens are cooked. For supplements to work they must be taken before the woman knows she's pregnant. As half of pregnancies are unplanned it follows that the taking of supplements will not prevent neural tube damage.

Groucho

15-04-2006, 09:39 AM

Would you prefer that a child suffers from a debilitating condition that can be prevented, in order to satisfy your need not to be nannied?

I wouldn't prefer to see any child suffer sf, but where do you want this nannying to stop.

Would it be better if the government stepped in and removed your right to drink alcohol, smoke or eat fatty foods?

And isn't it the case that many people who have grown to be valuable members of society came from poor backgrounds of the kind we're talking about, many of whom have risen above the sort of weakness you're referring to.

Yes, people overcome all sorts of obsticles to do great things in their lives.

However, the only weakness I'm referring to is stupidity.

Women who have a chance of becoming pregnant should be taking folic acid.

I really dont see the need to force feed the nation just to accomodate the small percentage of women who are too stupid to protect their own unborn child.

Patsy

15-04-2006, 01:45 PM

Hello Groucho

Yes, there are some very stupid women around and I can kind of see your point about strengthening the gene pool. Any silly b!tch can get pregnant. However, as it is a totally unobtrusive way of administering the folic acid and thereby preventing some potential birth defects, I really can't see it being a problem.

We have fluoride added to our tap water to help prevent gum disease and tooth decay. By the same token, would you have been against this and let everyone be responsible for their own fluoride intake?

Patsy
Intelligent but forgetful :huh:

look at me posting on Soapbox!

survivorfan

15-04-2006, 04:19 PM

I wouldn't prefer to see any child suffer sf, but where do you want this nannying to stop.

Unfortunately it does seem to boil down to a choice between having children suffering unnecessarily on the one hand, versus the right not to have the government nannying us on the other.

However, the only weakness I'm referring to is stupidity.

Perhaps some cases of spina bifida are down to parental ignorance or stupidity - but surely not all. And even if every case was down to stupidity, I don't think it's fair that the child should suffer for the mistakes of its parents, nor do I think it's even reasonable to suggest that such a thing is acceptable.

Women who have a chance of becoming pregnant should be taking folic acid.

They should, but unfortunately, due to half of pregnancies being unplanned, and the fact that a high proportion of women taking the supplement don't do it properly anyway, supplements don't do the trick. But putting it in bread, flour etc would ensure that as many women as possible who have a chance of getting pregnant will get it.

really dont see the need to force feed the nation just to accomodate the small percentage of women who are too stupid to protect their own unborn child.

It's not so much those women who are being protected as their children, and I'm sure nobody wishes a child to suffer the dreadful effects of spina bifida.

We're already getting folic acid in bread and other products (as well as other additives) although I admit I didn't know that until a day or two ago. Presumably if I don't want to take it, because I think it might harm me or merely on principle of not wanting to be nannied, I can avoid products containing it and choose alternatives. The same course of action would apply to products containing treated flour if t he government decides to go ahead with it.

Bob

15-04-2006, 10:32 PM

However, the only weakness I'm referring to is stupidity.

Women who have a chance of becoming pregnant should be taking folic acid.

I really dont see the need to force feed the nation just to accomodate the small percentage of women who are too stupid to protect their own unborn child.

So that would include most women between the ages of 16-45 as no contraception is 100%.

Plenty of women become pregnant while taking contraception and it's not unknown for women who believe that they can't have children to suddenly find themselves pregnant or for a vesectomy to fail

Groucho

16-04-2006, 12:49 PM

So that would include most women between the ages of 16-45 as no contraception is 100%.

If the cap fits, fnar, fnar.

I simply dont feel that the general population should be force fed additives that the vast majority dont need.

Presumably if I don't want to take it, because I think it might harm me or merely on principle of not wanting to be nannied, I can avoid products containing it and choose alternatives. The same course of action would apply to products containing treated flour if t he government decides to go ahead with it.

Agreed, but isn't this the tail wagging the dog?

msgirl

16-04-2006, 01:29 PM

Groucho, can't you go to the the organic/health food store, either purchase bread there or the flour to make your own?? It may be a relaxing hobby.

gatubela

16-04-2006, 03:06 PM

I really dont see the need to force feed the nation just to accomodate the small percentage of women who are too stupid to protect their own unborn child.

Trouble is, that small percentage generate a lot of premature or otherwise challenged children that create a big drain on the nations health care system, and ultimately the taxation system. I wouldn't have a problem either if they had to pay for their own ignorance, but it all falls back on someone else paying, thats the part of the equation that doesn't work for me as it supports and insures against the consequences of their ignorance.

When I ws pregnant I would go to the pub occassionally (second-hand smoke, gulity), but didn't smoke or drink, but another pregnant girl was there, always drinking and smoking, unmarried, father not interested, AND I saw her doing cocaine in the toilet one night. She didn't give a toss as she felt no threat to her life if the baby had problems - someone else would pickup the tab. BTW, her baby was born ok full term last I heard, but it didn't gain weight between the 7th and 9th month so came out underweight, but otherwise healthy as far as anyone could tell. Problems later on? No worries, SS will look after it.

Don't know the answer to be honest, but it all seemed so wrong that this woman (child) was bringing a child into the world.

survivorfan

16-04-2006, 03:47 PM

Agreed, but isn't this the tail wagging the dog?

It might be, but where lives, or damaged lives, are at stake I don't think that matters very much.

Northern angel

16-04-2006, 05:53 PM

That'll me me and you Mo! Not sure how you will look in the pvc shorts, but black is my colour and quietly confident I will look sufficiently like the nurse in OFOT Cuckoo's Nest. I'll pay you off from my secret stash of NZ strawberries....

Hello gatubela,

Your strawberries sound wonderful mm think I can taste them already. I have some relatives coming over from NewZealand soon, so I will have to start cooking more organic vegetarian dishes again. Not that I'm vegetarian, although I have been tempted. Also having to observe labels that little bit more, just to make sure I get the right things. I'm hoping they won't be in for a shock. Some of our foods are bad enough without adding any more crap to them.

I'd like bread to taste the way it used to.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Northern angel

16-04-2006, 06:06 PM

Unfortunately folic acid is destroyed when greens are cooked. For supplements to work they must be taken before the woman knows she's pregnant. As half of pregnancies are unplanned it follows that the taking of supplements will not prevent neural tube damage.

Hello survivorfan,

Maybe these women should be offered cookery lessons on how to retain 85% of the nutrients in vegetables. You know you are right that folic acid can be destroyed in cooking, but this really means over cooking vegetables till they become tasteless stodge and also whether the greens have been cut too small. Whenever I cook cabbage, I cook the leaves whole and for approximately 6 to 8 minutes. In fact all greens need as little trimming as possible and as little cooking as possible in a steamer with the lid on. In fact saute vegetables seals in all the nutrients of vegetables whilst cooking.

Taste of crisp just cooked vegetables is lovely.

If the taking of supplements is not the way ahead than it is hardly likely to be via adding such to the flour for bread making.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Northern angel

16-04-2006, 06:42 PM

Unfortunately it does seem to boil down to a choice between having children suffering unnecessarily on the one hand, versus the right not to have the government nannying us on the other.

Nobody wants to see another child suffering, if that suffering could be prevented.

Perhaps some cases of spina bifida are down to parental ignorance or stupidity - but surely not all. And even if every case was down to stupidity, I don't think it's fair that the child should suffer for the mistakes of its parents, nor do I think it's even reasonable to suggest that such a thing is acceptable.

This is true, but we are forgetting here that there are a number of genetic causes for various disabilities, not all of it comes down to a good diet and taking supplements. There are also some parents who I literally state are unfit to be parents, who as a result of behavioural habits will carelessy damage the unborn feotus.

They should, but unfortunately, due to half of pregnancies being unplanned, and the fact that a high proportion of women taking the supplement don't do it properly anyway, supplements don't do the trick. But putting it in bread, flour etc would ensure that as many women as possible who have a chance of getting pregnant will get it.

Rather than seeing a mass medication of the race, I would rather see an educational programme that was conducted in schools, about the importance of planning for a pregnancy preferably within a stable long term relationship as opposed to the growing numbers of Gymslip mums. I would also like to see sex education taught from the age of 11. Alongside, short courses on citizenship. Home economics should also be taught in the old fashioned way when the sylabus had a section for food nutrition.

Incidently how many young people do you feel know how to cook a simple meal today let alone know any other pan than the frying pan?

It's not so much those women who are being protected as their children, and I'm sure nobody wishes a child to suffer the dreadful effects of spina bifida.

Even with folic acid and other supplements the general health of the parents, may also bring about a higher risk of disabilities with increasing age. The quality of a woman's eggs after the age of 35 is suspect and the health of the male sperm count is also suspect from around this age to.

We're already getting folic acid in bread and other products (as well as other additives) although I admit I didn't know that until a day or two ago. Presumably if I don't want to take it, because I think it might harm me or merely on principle of not wanting to be nannied, I can avoid products containing it and choose alternatives. The same course of action would apply to products containing treated flour if t he government decides to go ahead with it.

If the government goes ahead apparently it will be white bread that is targetted as opposed to brown bread and speciality breads. Irrespective of this, I still feel it is the wrong direction to take.

Maureen
Northern angel

survivorfan

16-04-2006, 07:34 PM

Hello survivorfan,

Maybe these women should be offered cookery lessons on how to retain 85% of the nutrients in vegetables. You know you are right that folic acid can be destroyed in cooking, but this really means over cooking vegetables till they become tasteless stodge and also whether the greens have been cut too small. Whenever I cook cabbage, I cook the leaves whole and for approximately 6 to 8 minutes. In fact all greens need as little trimming as possible and as little cooking as possible in a steamer with the lid on. In fact saute vegetables seals in all the nutrients of vegetables whilst cooking.

Taste of crisp just cooked vegetables is lovely.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Sorry Maureen, you're plain wrong. It's not overcooking that destroys the folic acid content of green vegetables, it's any cooking. To get the 400mcg of folic acid needed daily via vegetables you'd have to eat 14lb of raw brussels sprouts a day.

If the taking of supplements is not the way ahead than it is hardly likely to be via adding such to the flour for bread making.

This I don't understand - I mean I can't understand what you are saying here.

survivorfan

16-04-2006, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by survivorfan
Unfortunately it does seem to boil down to a choice between having children suffering unnecessarily on the one hand, versus the right not to have the government nannying us on the other.

Nobody wants to see another child suffering, if that suffering could be prevented.

Adding folic acid to produce is the best way of preventing neural tube damage

we are forgetting here that there are a number of genetic causes for various disabilities, not all of it comes down to a good diet and taking supplements. There are also some parents who I literally state are unfit to be parents, who as a result of behavioural habits will carelessy damage the unborn feotus. .

Possibly true but beside the point.

Rather than seeing a mass medication of the race, I would rather see an educational programme that was conducted in schools, about the importance of planning for a pregnancy preferably within a stable long term relationship as opposed to the growing numbers of Gymslip mums. I would also like to see sex education taught from the age of 11. Alongside, short courses on citizenship. Home economics should also be taught in the old fashioned way when the sylabus had a section for food nutrition. .

Very good but it wouldn't work

Even with folic acid and other supplements the general health of the parents, may also bring about a higher risk of disabilities with increasing age. The quality of a woman's eggs after the age of 35 is suspect and the health of the male sperm count is also suspect from around this age to..

I think this is also beside the point.

If the government goes ahead apparently it will be white bread that is targetted as opposed to brown bread and speciality breads. Irrespective of this, I still feel it is the wrong direction to take.

Makes sense to target the most popular brands.

Fee For All

16-04-2006, 09:01 PM

I'm struggling with this one. Absolutely no objections to additives/supplements that improve health and quality of life, and I firmly believe in going with progress, especially when educational strategies don't seem to work.

But, the numbers don't seem to stack up. There were an estimated 551 - 631 affected pregnancies in 2002. It is reckoned that supplemented flour would have prevented 156 of these. So, we fortify flour with folic acid - and based on the same 2002 figures, expose approximately 3000 - 6000 people over 65 to risk of undiagnosed B12 deficiency. A delay in diagnosis can result in irreversible neurological damage.

The recommendation is to go ahead with the fortification of flour, and to step up the management strategy for vitamin deficiency in the over 65s.

It seems that the research into the effects on the older population hasn't been consistent in those countries that have introduced fortification.

Groucho

16-04-2006, 10:35 PM

So, we fortify flour with folic acid - and based on the same 2002 figures, expose approximately 3000 - 6000 people over 65 to risk of undiagnosed B12 deficiency. A delay in diagnosis can result in irreversible neurological damage.

Fee, can you expand on this point please, I'm not clear what you're saying.

Fee For All

16-04-2006, 11:15 PM

Northern angel

17-04-2006, 01:19 AM

Originally Posted by survivorfan
Unfortunately it does seem to boil down to a choice between having children suffering unnecessarily on the one hand, versus the right not to have the government nannying us on the other.

It really isn't that simple an issue.

Adding folic acid to produce is the best way of preventing neural tube damage

Research shows that there is a reduction in neural tube damage births, however, the percentage of this reduction is no greater than 23%. The remaining cases of spina bifida and other defects can have another origin as its source. You will of course think this is beside the point.

Makes sense to target the most popular brands.

The most popular brands of bread are not just bought by low income families or pregnant women, they are bought by otherwise healthy adults and the elderly who don't need an additonal dose of folic acid in there foods. You may say well they could buy an alternative, but why should they if they like mothers pride. A trivial issue you will be thinking.

Of course this isn't a trivial issue at all. Have you ever given any thought to the numbers who may start to suffer from neurological ailments, also increasing numbers suddenly involved in a premature ageing process, or indeed far worse.

A few days ago I found myself delving into one of those medical enclycopaedias of mine, and an article or so in the BMJ British Medical Journals and whilst these report on numerous cohort studies into the advantages and disadvantages of folic acid. I am still not convinced that adulterating everyday foods needs to be done.

Tonight I read into Fee's article, but still not convinced found these below. All in all. I can't agree with adding folic acid to the flour.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4078257.stm

www.homocysteine.net/pages/publications/2/folate_focus.html

www.second-opinions.co.uk/folate-cognitive-decline.html

www.holotc.net/pages/news/2/ukfood_standards.html
Maureen
Northern angel

Northern angel

17-04-2006, 01:50 AM

Sorry Maureen, you're plain wrong. It's not overcooking that destroys the folic acid content of green vegetables, it's any cooking. To get the 400mcg of folic acid needed daily via vegetables you'd have to eat 14lb of raw brussels sprouts a day.

I don't think the ever wonderful hunk of a chef Gordon Ramsay would say this? Certainly wouldn't want to visit the loo after the person who'd eaten 14lb of raw brussel sprouts either would you?:yahoo: This would produce enough gas to provide a street of houses with heating surely?

Maureen
Northern angel.

Northern angel

17-04-2006, 01:58 AM

Maybe the answer could be to produce a loaf available on prescription only to pregnant mothers which contains a percentage of the folic acid needed.

After all a whole range of nutritional drinks exist which are prescribed for the under nourished or elderly in hospitals, residential homes and for those who reside at home, all available on prescription.

If the above was considered as a possible solution that would mean the rest of us would not be eating any medicated or adultered bread. This might cost less as the supplement would only have to be added to a loaf produced for NHS distribution, rather than large scale National distribution within the supermarket and food chain.

Maureen
Northern angel.

msgirl

17-04-2006, 03:56 AM

I think that if you can have a benefit added, why not take advantage of it. Can they not make a bread that has the folic acid and one that doesn't?? I know in America we have soooooo many pregnancies, with most of them being underage girls that don't seek pre-natal care and show up at the hospital and **WOW** have a baby. This will continue to be an issue until the end of time, here and everywhere, but for the women who WANT to do all possible things to ensure a healthy pregnancy, what's the issue?? When I planned my first child, my ob/gyn had me get into the mode of no caffieine, no second hand smoke, taking supplements, etc...fortunately I had a healthy child (minus the constant ear infections and subsequent ear tubes at 14 months). My second child was a different story...I was taking an anti-depressant and another medication for my OCD and was 3 months along before I found out I was pregnant with him. I immediately had to stop my meds and start my pre-natal vitamins and he turned out fine. BUT I went to ALL my doctor's visits with both pregnancies and did what I was instructed to do. And, naturally, sometimes despite all the care and planning and dilligence, a child is born disabled. That it boils down to an argument over flour/bread is neither here nor there, IMO. Request bread that does not have this additive, make your own, go to a health food store for the bread/flour sans said additive. If you knew about ALL of the things they put in your food today, you'd be eating twigs and grass and then there's the worry of if the tree or grass was sprayed with something harmful!!:huh:

Groucho

17-04-2006, 07:58 AM

The research into this reckons that fortified flour could have prevented 156 affected pregnancies (full-term and aborted) in one year. This is versus the number (up to 6000) of over 65s who could have been adversely affected by this fortification. (Folic acid masks signs of vitamin B12 deficiency which can lead to nerological problems).

As we are supposed to have an ageing population, and the incidence of NTD pregnancies has been dropping, it just seemed a bit odd.

The consultation paper is here (http://www.sacn.gov.uk/)

Got you now.

To me it just doesn't make sense to stuff the broad population full of things that only a small percentage need, when the long term consequences of these action aren't fully understood.

A few people have mentioned chlorine in our water, which many scientists put rapidly falling fertility in men down to.

survivorfan

17-04-2006, 08:23 AM

Of course this isn't a trivial issue at all. Have you ever given any thought to the numbers who may start to suffer from neurological ailments, also increasing numbers suddenly involved in a premature ageing process, or indeed far worse

I haven't, because as I menioned earlier, I haven't seen what those numbers are. Do you know? (And I don't mean the folic acd equivalent of '50000 schoolchildren may die from bird flu')

Research shows that there is a reduction in neural tube damage births, however, the percentage of this reduction is no greater than 23%. The remaining cases of spina bifida and other defects can have another origin as its source. You will of course think this is beside the point.

Yes, I do think it's beside the point, in that we are discussing those cases that are down to folic acid deficiency. A 23% reducion is pretty good in my book.

I am still not convinced that adulterating everyday foods needs to be done.

Use of the word 'adulterating' used here to imply something bad, harmful,whereas the intention is that it is being added to bring benefits.

Maybe the answer could be to produce a loaf available on prescription only to pregnant mothers which contains a percentage of the folic acid needed.

After all a whole range of nutritional drinks exist which are prescribed for the under nourished or elderly in hospitals, residential homes and for those who reside at home, all available on prescription.

If the above was considered as a possible solution that would mean the rest of us would not be eating any medicated or adultered bread. This might cost less as the supplement would only have to be added to a loaf produced for NHS distribution, rather than large scale National distribution within the supermarket and food chain.

It's important that the folic acid supplement is taken before the mother knows she's pregnant. Given that 50% of pregnancies are unplanned, and that most women don't take supplements properly anyway so probably wouldn't take their prescrption bread properly, surely this wouldn't work.

Fee For All

17-04-2006, 09:17 AM

I haven't, because as I menioned earlier, I haven't seen what those numbers are. Do you know? (And I don't mean the folic acd equivalent of '50000 schoolchildren may die from bird flu')
There aren't any numbers - no specific research has been undertaken.

Tonight I read into Fee's article, but still not convinced found these below. All in all. I can't agree with adding folic acid to the flour.

'Fee's article' is the consultation document which was no doubt the source of the other articles you listed, all of which will have interpreted it. As I did. The responses on the same site are interesting.

(Mo, why do you post in underlined bold? It's the cyber equivalent of shouting)

gatubela

17-04-2006, 11:40 AM

A few people have mentioned chlorine in our water, which many scientists put rapidly falling fertility in men down to.

Haven't heard that one, but you know those little rings in cigarettes (have a look next time you see one) that are there to help it stay alight? Thats saltpetre - used to keep the boys peckers down in WWI.

Then there is the hormone thingy too (isn't that making all the frogs change sex as well?). Add Chlorine, and we now know where boy george came from.

Maybe they'll be adding viagra to flour next.

Northern angel

18-04-2006, 12:46 AM

I haven't, because as I menioned earlier, I haven't seen what those numbers are. Do you know? (And I don't mean the folic acd equivalent of '50000 schoolchildren may die from bird flu')

Hello survivorfan,

As I was googling, the other night I did come across some statistics which related to change in medical conditions and general health in relation to the masking of vitamin B12 where the exccess of folic acid was evident in the diet and in the use of supplements. Some of the people involved were in the over 60's group, others were pregnant women. Some had not only developed neurological disorders but there was also the reported rise of breast cancer. I have only previously listed a few of the sites checked into. In balance I also checked those sites which favoured the addition of folic acid.

Yes, I do think it's beside the point, in that we are discussing those cases that are down to folic acid deficiency. A 23% reducion is pretty good in my book.

Use of the word 'adulterating' used here to imply something bad, harmful,whereas the intention is that it is being added to bring benefits.

In view of the reduction percentage as being 1 in 5 (23%) fewer cases of spina bifida, offset against that is the thousands of people who will suffer from the aforementioned neurlogical complaints. In terms of cost it is not economical to quantify or qualify the expenditure of folic acid additions to a nationally available product and at the same time provide treatment and care for that sector of the population who will need attention as a result.Hence my use of the word adulterating, folic acid could well be a bad thing for the rest of us.

It's important that the folic acid supplement is taken before the mother knows she's pregnant. Given that 50% of pregnancies are unplanned, and that most women don't take supplements properly anyway so probably wouldn't take their prescrption bread properly, surely this wouldn't work.

I think in all due fairness, to these pregnant women they may appreciate a reduction in the cost of there weekly bread bill, had a bread been specially prescribed to them been made available via a pharmacy. Rather than a suoermarket product for general retail sale to all of us. I certainly think it might be worth a try.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Fee For All

18-04-2006, 12:55 AM

offset against that is the thousands of people who will suffer from the aforementioned neurlogical complaints.
It's not 'will'; it's 'may'.

I did come across some statistics
...and they were?

And you're still shouting.

Northern angel

18-04-2006, 12:59 AM

There aren't any numbers - no specific research has been undertaken.
|Hello fee,

Of all the research that is available the statistics appear in some cases to be an estimate rather than an end figure.An indiction that further research and time must be allocated to the project. They also vary according to region and dietry habits. Another variable is the age factor some of the cohort groups looked at children, others teens, a few specified looking at the affects pregnant women and post menopausal women, others the over 60's and 65's.

'Fee's article' is the consultation document which was no doubt the source of the other articles you listed, all of which will have interpreted it. As I did. The responses on the same site are interesting.

To add or not to add folic acid to the flour for white bread has certainly proved to be a debatealbe and interesting subject.
(Mo, why do you post in underlined bold? It's the cyber equivalent of shouting)

Apologies to you or anyone else who has found the underlined bold offensive or the cyber equivalent of shouting. Point taken and accepted. Thank you.

Maureen
Northern angel

survivorfan

18-04-2006, 10:39 AM

I think in all due fairness, to these pregnant women they may appreciate a reduction in the cost of there weekly bread bill, had a bread been specially prescribed to them been made available via a pharmacy. Rather than a suoermarket product for general retail sale to all of us. I certainly think it might be worth a try.

Maureen
Northern angel.

How would it help the 50% of unplanned pregnancies?

Northern angel

18-04-2006, 02:38 PM

How would it help the 50% of unplanned pregnancies?

Hello survivorfan,

On this issue survivorfan, you have definitely got me. But who can say that of the 50%of unplanned pregnancies what proportion of them is likely to result in a child with Spina Bifida or Cerebral Palsy or one of many other disabilities? Sod's law would probably dictate that of these unplanned pregnancies they may have a perfectly healthy child. Which is sadly unwanted or thought of as an incumbrance. It may even be that a perfectly healthy child ends up abborted.

I do know that of the over 7 million carers in England and Wales, they look after almost 85% of the numbers of people with varying degrees of medical complaints and disabilities. I also know that there is a percentage of Spina Bifida cases where the individual lives and manages to live a normal life and you nor I would be aware of problem. There are also in place in Britain practices from region to region which encourage people with disabilities to live out in the community with minimal care input. A small percentage live within institutionalised care the severity and quality of life rendering them unabale to cope at home or in the wider community.

I would have hoped that in our so called more civilised society that sex educational policy would have been so far ahead in our schools to reduce the numbers of teenage pregnancies. But unfortunately the Mcdonalds adict, is so keen to escape school at 16 and then home, teenage pregnancies continue to rise and will no doubt continue to do so as long as benefits are in place to subsisdise the upbringing of unwanted and unplanned children into the world, and for all councils to stop placing it as a priority area for independent housing needs. I would have hoped that adults would do the decent thing and plan for children. Sadly, both these areas only exist in an ideal and impossible world.

I am a strong believer in education and an equally strong believer that the scientists conducting continual research would not state half facts, if there was not some degree of truth in there findings.

Maureen
Northern angel.

survivorfan

18-04-2006, 02:50 PM

Hello survivorfan,

On this issue survivorfan, you have definitely got me. But who can say that of the 50%of unplanned pregnancies what proportion of them is likely to result in a child with Spina Bifida or Cerebral Palsy or

You can fairly safely say that of the total number of cases of neural tube damage caused by lack of folic acid, 50% will occur in unplanned pregnancies and so will be beyond the help of folic acid supplements as the damage is usually done before the mother knows she's pregnant.

Northern angel

18-04-2006, 03:13 PM

You can fairly safely say that of the total number of cases of neural tube damage caused by lack of folic acid, 50% will occur in unplanned pregnancies and so will be beyond the help of folic acid supplements as the damage is usually done before the mother knows she's pregnant.

Hello again,

Yes, this is true and yes I can see why you would support the idea of placing a folic acid supplement in the bread. There is with all due consideration a very good reason to do this, but equally so this raises another issue in addition to medicating the nation, and the expected rise in neurological disorders.

Whether medicating the bread would completely work in consideration that there will be other areas of diet and health that would be suspect from those unplanned pregnancies from the poorer sectors of society. The effort to supplement the flour could well be a wasted effort if other dietry habits and abuses are not controlled or kerbed.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Bonsai

18-04-2006, 03:18 PM

I havent read the whole of this thread - and i dont know who is for / against, but personally it really doesnt bother me.

From a personal perspective i was born with a mild form of Spina Bifida. I have a large lump on the base of my back which is unsightly and i could never wear swimwear. Maybe if my mother had of eaten bread with a folic acid supplement this wouldnt of happened. Who knows ?

Northern angel

18-04-2006, 05:48 PM

Hello Bonsai,

This has been what I'd consider an excellent thread. I can't help but feel that maybe it is one which should have had a poll.

For adding folic acid to flour for white bread.
Against adding folic acid to flour for white bread.
Uncertain about adding folic acid to flour for white bread.

I have a question apart from not wearing swimwear, do you feel that your Spina Bifida has posed an issue in life and has held you back, in your career goals?

I am sorry if you feel this is too personal a question. But the subject of the thread is evocative of both positive and negative opinions. Also many of my friends and family work in special needs schools and there is a divide in thought on this subject with them to, even though they have first hand experience of the issues and problems likely to be incurred by people with a range of alternatively able complaints.

Maureen
Northern angel.

survivorfan

18-04-2006, 05:55 PM

Hello again,
Whether medicating the bread would completely work in consideration that there will be other areas of diet and health that would be suspect from those unplanned pregnancies from the poorer sectors of society.
Maureen
Northern angel.

Sorry - don't understand.

Bonsai

18-04-2006, 05:56 PM

I have a question apart from not wearing swimwear, do you feel that your Spina Bifida has posed an issue in life and has held you back, in your career goals?.

No, it hasnt held me back as it is mild.

I was only diagnosed about 8 years ago. Basically i had always had a lump in my back at the base of my spine but it started to grow and it ached. I had private medical insurance at the time (thank god) and my mum persuaded me to go and get it checked out.

I had a scan in one of those tunnel thingies .... is it a CAT scan ? Cor I felt claustrophobic in there - i kept imagining they had gone off for a cuppa and forgotten about me :blush: .

Thats when it was diagnosed. My mum was shocked.

I was told they could operate on me, but i didnt go ahead with it as im not a fan of knives. Basically the only problems i have is trouble standing for very long and I have to be careful what sort of chair i sit in if im sat for a long time and thats about it.

The lump hasnt grown anymore but it is ugly, but clothes cover it. I was told it might cause me more problems as i get older - but ill cross that bridge when i get to it.

To be honest ive forgotten how it feels to sit down and NOT feel like i have a cushion wedged up the back of my T-shirt.

Northern angel

18-04-2006, 06:18 PM

Sorry - don't understand.

Hello survivorfan,

I know its another line of what shall we say enquiry. But if those most at risk are in the lower income groups, than it could be equally likely that they had taken a gamble on having a child and then to find it plausible to gamble again on there child being healthy against the odds. Also the line of the most resistance to change tends to come from within that social group. Being offered an education at the turn of the 20th century was thought to be an inconvenience as it cut back the earning potential of children. Whose incomes were seen as essential to overall household economy.

Likewise, encouraging healthy diets and exercise tends to be met with the attitude, live for today, eat drink and be merry for tommorrow we die. There are also other regionalised abuses that need looking into also, from smoking to excess alcohol consumption and last but not least drugs.

Many years ago being part of a team to educate on the subject of sex and contraceptives, I was met most aggressively by two forms of resistence. One was religion, it was an all boys catholic school. These little angels know not to practice any sexual activity likely to get some poor girl into a mess.so they won't be needing condoms. The second was from parents. Fifth form, My little angel doesn't need sexual guidance she knows it all already, from us. These parents were little more than 16 years the senior of the teens in question.

Maureen
Northern angel.

survivorfan

18-04-2006, 06:36 PM

Nope - you've lost me.

Northern angel

19-04-2006, 01:43 AM

No, it hasnt held me back as it is mild.

I was only diagnosed about 8 years ago. Basically i had always had a lump in my back at the base of my spine but it started to grow and it ached. I had private medical insurance at the time (thank god) and my mum persuaded me to go and get it checked out.

I had a scan in one of those tunnel thingies .... is it a CAT scan ? Cor I felt claustrophobic in there - i kept imagining they had gone off for a cuppa and forgotten about me :blush: .

Thats when it was diagnosed. My mum was shocked.

I was told they could operate on me, but i didnt go ahead with it as im not a fan of knives. Basically the only problems i have is trouble standing for very long and I have to be careful what sort of chair i sit in if im sat for a long time and thats about it.

The lump hasnt grown anymore but it is ugly, but clothes cover it. I was told it might cause me more problems as i get older - but ill cross that bridge when i get to it.

To be honest ive forgotten how it feels to sit down and NOT feel like i have a cushion wedged up the back of my T-shirt.

Hello again Bonsai,

I'm very pleased to read that it is mild and even more pleased to read that it hasn't held you back in life.

The Cat scan or MRI scan can take around 20 minutes, and its 20 minutes of anxiety because whilst its being done you have to remain still and quiet. In certain states in America having a scan of this nature is common practice as it can detect medical problems early, therefore giving you the opportunity to decide on a course of action. If action is indeed needed. The staff may well have had time for a cuppa, but I doubt whether they did.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do for the future. Apologies again in case it was just a little to personal.

Maureen
Northern angel,