I watched BBC London News tonight and I was infuriated. Maybe you have seen it already, but it was the first time for me. In four years time (and this will definitely happen) every car is to be fitted with a DVD device that will act like a Sat Nav and it will send out a signal as to how far you are driving, what speed and your destinations. Basically it tracks every journey you make in your car and you will be charged a fee for each mile you travel. The initial figures (not confirmed) are that it will cost £20 extra per week. I am outraged at this, not only by the charge but the fact that my journeys will be monitored. I find this very intrusive. What about you?

The initial figures (not confirmed) are that it will cost £20 extra per week. I am outraged at this, not only by the charge but the fact that my journeys will be monitored. I find this very intrusive. What about you?

Yet another New Labour stealth tax, wheeled out under the banner of green initiatives.

It's about money, nothing else.

Do you reckon people might start realising this and get them out of power though? I don't think you and myself can do it on our own grouch!:unsure:

They would probably think I'd removed mine since I only do around 40 miles a week anyway! :wacko:

The worry here is it could be used to monitor you speeds aswell..oooer...I'd pick up a few tickets for sure enroute to Newquay and back! :unsure:

I think they were on the right track by putting higher taxes on the gas guzzling vehicles...there are far to many Mum truckers about who simply do not need to be driving a honking great 4x4 or people carrier...they would survive just as well with a Micra!

Do you know I must have imagined this threat as having gone away. If I remember rightly it was being discussed some time last year. The original suggestion coming from Mr Darling MP at the same time as petrol cost rises, diesel cost rises, tolls on certain roads, reductions in charges for those willing to car share for work, and all sort of other schemes in an attempt to reduce traffic congestion. The biggest bone of contention was the definition of key workers, which left out large sections of those who work in the city or on its fringe.

The idea outraged me then, it outrages me today. In fact if this tax on the British worker ever comes in, the government deserves to fall never to rise again for a 100 years.

There nothing but a bunch of F _ _ _ _ _ g rissoles.

If you knew how much tax you were paying to the government on your diesel and petrol, you'd be equally outraged. As British motorists, transport firms and haulage companies pay the highest tax on petrol and diesel throughout Europe.

This is a subject I touched upon in a thread on public transport a short time ago.

Crazy.

Maureen
Northern angel.
P S We need some french protestors over here.

I had tried to convince hubby to get OnStar (http://www.onstar.com/us_english/jsp/index.jsp) for our vehicles, especially the family car and msboy #1's car in case you get lost or get in a wreck or whatever, you just push that button and they have a live person talking to you in your car and getting you help or whatever. No, says he...it's just another way of the Government to track him and he'll not have any traffic with it. So, I guess I just hope I have a good signal for the mobile in the "Deliverance" counties I have to go through to get to the hometown and to check on Granny in the nursing home, so I can *HP for the Mississippi Highway Patrol!!

My first reaction is that this sounds like another of those 'theyr'e banning hot cross buns' stories whose main puprose in life is to give an excuse for a rant against thye government. What makes me a bit dubious is Tigger's 'this wiill definitely happen' because nothing is definite.

Can anyone (Tigger?) give us a link to thye full story?

Both the author and the journalist pointed out that this was a definite thing. They said it will happen in four years time and that the logistics were just going through now, but it has been approved by the Government. Give us a few mins to see if I can find the link.

Here is a link to the BBC website, but it is not exactly the same story that was on the news last night. I don't know how to find that. It was on BBC London News at 6.30pm if anyone knows how to find that.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4917478.stm

Are these the road-charge changes that were mooted last year? Instead of road tax and petrol duty (allegedly), we would pay depending on use. More for high congestion areas and motorways; less in rural areas.

There's a BBC report (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4610755.stm) from last summer when it was announced, and another (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4917478.stm) one from this week folowing the release (I think) of a report from the Independent Traffic Commission.

I heard someone talking about it on the Today programme yesterday, but was only just awake enough to have my curiosity roused :laugh:

Thanks for that link Tigger. There's another link on that page that gives a bit more information on the scheme: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4610755.stm


It does include this: The transport secretary said the charges, aimed at cutting congestion, would replace road tax and petrol duty

It does include this: The transport secretary said the charges, aimed at cutting congestion, would replace road tax and petrol duty


Thanks SF for that. Do you really think the Government will replace the road tax and petrol duty? (which I must add was not mentioned on the report last night) It'll be interesting to see that. I guess I'm not so much worried about the cost, it bothers me some, but is not a major issue for me, but I do know it will once again divide those who will be able to afford to drive and those that can't. Hmmm I'm not sure that sits well with me.

Plus, I really don't like the idea of my journeys being tracked, and I'm wondering how that is going to work. Will people really put up with that?

The idea outraged me then, it outrages me today. In fact if this tax on the British worker ever comes in, the government deserves to fall never to rise again for a 100 years.

There nothing but a bunch of F _ _ _ _ _ g rissoles.

Crazy.

Maureen
Northern angel.


It looks like the Conservatives might be tentatively agreeing with the scheme:

"Shadow transport secretary Alan Duncan said he had concerns about the technology and implications for civil liberties.

But he also told Today: "I think it is a vision for the future ...We have more cars in the same amount of space so we do have a problem with congestion."

so changing the government might not allay your fears.

If you knew how much tax you were paying to the government on your diesel and petrol, you'd be equally outraged.
Crazy.

Maureen
Northern angel.


I do know how much tax I'm paying to the goverment on my petrol thanks. And I'm not outraged on either count.

The fuel duty that private motorists and lorries pay has not increased since April 2001 I think it is, so you could say we're not doing so badly.

The fuel duty that private motorists and lorries pay has not increased since April 2001 I think it is, so you could say we're not doing so badly.

We pay higher fuel duty than anyone else in the EU, so I dont think we're doing so well, either.

The only reason duty hasn't gone up recently is because Gordon Brown is s*** scared of of the public reaction affecting his chance of becoming Prime Minister.

Can you imagine not only how invasive tracking every single journey you make in your own vehicle will be and in addition to that irrespective of whether Road tax is abolished, what charging you per mile could add up to in the short space of say 4 weeks and then multiply that by 13 months. You could well be paying 1.500.00 or 2.000.00 pounds per year just for short journeys.

I know there saying that if you use rural roads the charge might be say as little as 2p per mile, but if you use the motorway in the rush hour morning and night it will be 134p per mile. In addition to this attempting to avoid the higher milage charge would place increased demands upon rural roads.

Initially if we put the politics aside, some of you may think this is a good idea to reduce congestion, after all Survivorfan rightfully has stated that there are more cars on the road in the same space, furthermore, by comparison one could equally say that the motor car has become the most popular means of transport in the last 20 years and that as economical conditions have improved for the majority; this new vehicle wealth, has gone on to create problems not just in relation to traffic congestion but road repairs etc and cut backs in public transport for the rest of society.

I can also foresee a problem in how this money will be collected, will it be added to petrol charges so that you pay for it as you fuel up. Will you receive a monthly bill from some satellite navigation system monitor. There will be costs in collecting this money and in the administration of its collection and re-allocation, where will it go after that.

All in all, it really is a bad idea.

It is a stealth tax which will affect the most vulnerable groups in society unless of course they are exempt. Someone of course will have to foot bill aswell for nothing in truth is free. It will also affect the earning potential of Britains workers, essential workers included, whoever Mr Darling or Mr Alan Adams conceives them to be.

The wider perspective on this is that the cost of white goods, foods etc will all cost more and inflation would rise beyond wage rises, which over the last 10 years or so have been kept low and below the rate of inflation.

Bringing in a travel by mile charge for motorists could well mean some could not afford to work and run a vehicle.

Maureen
Northern angel.

A little information for those concerned about the actual costs of diesel and petrol and maybe in doing a reality check.

www.transformscotland.org.uk/info/docs/fuellingtheDebate.html

www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4066133-103677,00.html

www.rha.net/public/news/releases/2000/000926.shtmlwww.rha.net/public/news/releases/2005/051129.shtml

www.rha.net/public/news/releases/2005/051108.shtml

www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199798/cmhansrd/vo980423/debtext/80423-03.htm

Have fun. The road haulage association articles are very interesting on the subject.

Maureen
Northern angel.

You could well be paying 1.500.00 or 2.000.00 pounds per year just for short journeys.

But then again you might not. Even if you did, would that be more, or less, than the equivalent car tax/petrol duty?

after all Survivorfan rightfully has stated that there are more cars on the road in the same space,.

No I didn't!

there will be costs in collecting this money and in the administration of its collection
All in all, it really is a bad idea. .

Any scheme has associated costs, including petrol duty and road tax schemes.

It is a stealth tax .

It wouldn't really be though would it? Isn't a stealth tax something that is hidden or obscured so that people don't realise they're paying it - this would be quite open.


Someone of course will have to foot bill aswell for nothing in truth is free..

Nobody's expecting it to be free.


The wider perspective on this is that the cost of white goods, foods etc will all cost more and inflation would rise beyond wage rises, ..

How can you be so sure?

Bringing in a travel by mile charge for motorists could well mean some could not afford to work and run a vehicle.

THis might be the way we are heading in time, and although it might appear shocking now where motoring is thought of as a right, it might be necessary to consider a future where motoring is such an expensive way to travel that the way we live and work will have to radically change.

A little information for those concerned about the actual costs of diesel and petrol and maybe in doing a reality check.

www.transformscotland.org.uk/info/docs/fuellingtheDebate.html

www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4066133-103677,00.html

www.rha.net/public/news/releases/2000/000926.shtmlwww.rha.net/public/news/releases/2005/051129.shtml

www.rha.net/public/news/releases/2005/051108.shtml

www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199798/cmhansrd/vo980423/debtext/80423-03.htm

Have fun. The road haulage association articles are very interesting on the subject.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Far, far, far too much information to digest, no indication of what argument the links are there to support, and what's this with the 'reality check' - are you suggesting your POV is based on reality and everyone else's isn't?

A little information for those concerned about the actual costs of diesel and petrol and maybe in doing a reality check.

www.transformscotland.org.uk/info/docs/fuellingtheDebate.html

www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4066133-103677,00.html

www.rha.net/public/news/releases/2000/000926.shtmlwww.rha.net/public/news/releases/2005/051129.shtml

www.rha.net/public/news/releases/2005/051108.shtml

www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199798/cmhansrd/vo980423/debtext/80423-03.htm

Have fun. The road haulage association articles are very interesting on the subject.

Maureen
Northern angel.
Just at random I tried the Grauniad link and the story seems to be completely irrelevant to the thread topic of per mile charging. Can you explain the relevance, or have I just wasted my time reading it? Are the other links relevant, and if so, how?

Also, where did the 134p/mile figure come from?

****** me, at 134p a mile I'd be paying £140 a day in road tax!

Thats 33 grand a year :w00t: :ohmy:

But it must be right cos it says so on the internet. :bag:

Seems a little toppy :glare:

***** me, at 134p a mile I'd be paying £140 a day in road tax!

You're busy and important. You can afford it :w00t:

****** me
Apparently Alistair Darling plans to :ohmy:


I gather he doesn't have a driving license, so it's just possible he might to slap a huge tax that he'll never personally have to pay. However to look on the bright side, the technology needed to continuously monitor twenty million vehicles all on differently priced roads and at differently priced times of day, and then correctly bill all the owners, would be something stupendous. We'll all be retired before the Government gets it to work.

But won't they get Capita to run it?:cool:

Thanks for that link Tigger. There's another link on that page that gives a bit more information on the scheme: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4610755.stm


It does include this: The transport secretary said the charges, aimed at cutting congestion, would replace road tax and petrol duty

Hello survivorfan,

I can't imagine any government replacing petrol duty. Petrol duty is a major revenue raiser. I suppose if the powers that be wanted to wave a carrot to soften the blow they might do away with road tax discs.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Hello survivorfan,

I can't imagine any government replacing petrol duty. Petrol duty is a major revenue raiser.

Yes it is, but it would be replaced by a major revenue raiser. WOuldn't it?

A little information for those concerned about the actual costs of diesel and petrol and maybe in doing a reality check..

Why is having expensive diesel and petrol a bad thing?

But then again you might not. Even if you did, would that be more, or less, than the equivalent car tax/petrol duty?

I don't think there would be an equative figure, I have strong thoughts that someone covering say 30 miles a day would end up forking out a considerable amount over what petrol duties would have been.

No I didn't!

I'm sorry Survivorfan, the words spoken were by Alan Duncan on the today programme.

Any scheme has associated costs, including petrol duty and road tax schemes.

I'm trying to think minimal costs and unfortunately because the scheme sounds extremely complicated, I can't forsee it working.

It wouldn't really be though would it? Isn't a stealth tax something that is hidden or obscured so that people don't realise they're paying it - this would be quite open.


Yes, you are right, but I do confess that it is also my own personal opinion that it is another con to get more money out of motorists with the ultimate intention of not only kerbing the number of future motorists on the road but to cut back on the present. Another con that the party is taking with Green issues, without any real fore thought on the backlash this will have on people who work and need a vehicle.

Nobody's expecting it to be free.

How can you be so sure?

I have a gut feeling on this one, as to all intensive purposes the views expressed particularly by the road haulage association releases are of course biased. But what isn't is the relationship between what percentage is paid to the oil companies, what percentage is paid in government duties and the remainder which is left to the retailer of petrol and diesel goods.We do not stand well in Europe on this count as our duties are the highest, hence in 2000 French hauliers and port workers held a series of strikes, in objection to paying such high duties on imported goods. The effect on this was queuing at petrol stations who were not getting supplies and those who were still able to sell such charged a levy on oil related goods. There is a relationship between the price of goods in the shops to the price of getting the goods by road to the warehouses. Also an unhappy relationship between manufacturer and haulage contractors, who will if they can charge any additional costs of transportation to the manufacturer.

In fact I feel very bold to say this but paying by mile will not be good news to businesses or industry full stop. For even if the larger hauliers managed to get an exemption granted the smaller concern will still be affected. Prices will naturally rise. The consumer and motorist footing the bill whether we like it or not. Through inflation recognised by a rise in the retail price index, on all consumables, foods, and white goods.

THis might be the way we are heading in time, and although it might appear shocking now where motoring is thought of as a right, it might be necessary to consider a future where motoring is such an expensive way to travel that the way we live and work will have to radically change.

I do think some changes wouldn't be a bad idea. but instead of penalising people I think there are ways in which to reward people instead.
The cost of rail in Britain is pathetically high, maybe this could be standardised for people who need to use rail to get to work during work hours. Large companies could utilise a bus company to ferry its workers at reduced rates. People who car share for work could maybe have reduced insurance premiums. Do you know it was cheaper for my company to pay for flights than rail travel or petrol for personal cars, several years ago, and we did.

Ultimately if this tax does come in, it will be the final nail in Labours coffin, as it will have gone from being the party of the people shall we say, You know the working man - apologies ladies not meaning to be sexist. In favour of social mobility and the trappings of new found wealth to reinstigating a new divide, between those who can afford to drive and those who can't.

What ways do you think may be the way ahead?

Maureen
Northern angel.

as to all intensive purposes

What does that mean? I've seen you use it before, but I can't for the life of me work out how a purpose can be intensive. Or what it contributes to whatever you are trying to say.

Just at random I tried the Grauniad link and the story seems to be completely irrelevant to the thread topic of per mile charging. Can you explain the relevance, or have I just wasted my time reading it? Are the other links relevant, and if so, how?

Also, where did the 134p/mile figure come from?

Hello Mikado,

I know it looks like homework masses to read. Apologies, I suppose in a way you have to be raving mad or interested in a subject to write anything in detail.

Sometimes, I come across as raving mad.

There is always method in my madness though, the pieces mentioned all have something relevant to say that is either directly related to the issue of the thread or indirectly related to the thread.

The 2p per mile on the use of rural roads 134p per mile on motorways at peak times comes from an earlier BBC news article.

One of the best reports on the subject came from Colin Howden in September of 1999, titled.'WHAT ARE THE TRUE COSTS OF TRANSPORT', whilst commisioned by Transform Scotland. Unfortunately I've lost the link.

Mikado I hope your foot improving, because at this rate Shanksies pony express will be running transport services for your area.

Maureen
Northern angel.

What does that mean? I've seen you use it before, but I can't for the life of me work out how a purpose can be intensive. Or what it contributes to whatever you are trying to say.


Hello Fee,

In relation to the splurge about the road haulage association, I'm saying I feel that I have an understanding of what they are about and what they are saying.

'to all intensive purposes' I'm sorry if it does nothing for anyone, its one of my idiosyncrasies of speech. I'm typing as if I were speaking. We all have them.

What do you think of the idea of charging by the mile yourself?

I wish I knew how to put up a poll. Still I'm a nincompoop on the IT score.
:)
Maureen
Northern angel.

I've supported road charges instead of road tax and fuel duty for a long time.

I still don't understand 'intensive purposes'. Idiosyncracy or not, it makes no sense and therefore interferes with your content. Are you sure you don't mean this? (http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxtoalli.html)

I've supported road charges instead of road tax and fuel duty for a long time.

I still don't understand 'intensive purposes'. Idiosyncracy or not, it makes no sense and therefore interferes with your content. Are you sure you don't mean this? (http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxtoalli.html)

Hello Fee,

Thank you very much, Yes.

An extremely interesting website, the detail I have noted to peruse at will. Especially if it full of words that are no longer used, or expressions of speech delienated as corruptions. Oooo gosh I like it. History there aswell. Love it.

Maureen
Northern angel.

What ways do you think may be the way ahead?

Maureen
Northern angel.[/COLOR]

Aim to reduce the use of private vehicles (bad for the environment) by:

- making it increasingly expensive to use your car (Current Govt said it would make this its aim and it has done so) thereby encouraging people to

- use public transport instead
unfortunately not an attractive alternative due to the high cost of rail travel, we seem to have failed in this respect

- move towards a completely different home/work/leisure setup including:
. car no longer becomes a 'right'
. stop assuming it's normal to use a car to go wherever you want
. work from home
. live close to place of work

I read the link that Tigger gave and the key sentence would appear to be this

The government expects the first trial pay-as-you-go scheme to be operating by 2010.

In other words they are talking about a trial in four years time - not everywhere - and they only expect it to happen then.

Mind you - as long as they are doing something to road tax and petrol duty to balance a bit I'm in favour - providing they make allowances for those who live in rural areas with little or no public transport.

We pay higher fuel duty than anyone else in the EU, so I dont think we're doing so well, either.

The only reason duty hasn't gone up recently is because Gordon Brown is s*** scared of of the public reaction affecting his chance of becoming Prime Minister.


Hello Groucho,

Just found out today that the actual amount paid in fuel duties out of every pound spent at the pumps is eighty pence. That is already terribly high and even if this was abolished and replaced by another system the costs, the red tape and its non popularity would render the new system of charging per mile unacceptable by any reasonable standards.

In my opinion the introduction of charges per mile, could well put certain people out of work or place unreasonable expenses onto employers who need mobile employees.

For those who can change there working lives ,that may well be to there own benefit, but this will not be an option for most people.

Even with discounts or allowances made to those living in rural areas, these would have to be substantial.

Maureen
Northern angel.