Right, something that was mentioned in the John Prescott thread about being able to resign if you fail at your job has fired me up to ask this question..

Do people accept responsibility for thier actions these days?

I have to answer that NO, I don't think they do.

A small example is this, Mr B's wages have been wrong for the last four months, not life threatening in itself, but damn annoying, when he goes to find out why, he is passed from one department to another. Someone, somewhere knows they have made a mistake with paperwork or whatever, but no one is saying, 'that was my fault, and I apologise' no one is admitting anything.
If I make a mistake at work, I am quite happy to out my hand up and say 'that was my **** up - sorry' and if I can put it right, I will.

where, when and how did we lose this ability to accept responsibility? I listen to parents at school blaming teachers for their child's lack of discipline and want to throttle them, your child-your responsibility.

What are your views? Am I wrong?

right I am off for a lie down with a wet flannel, not used to being in soapbox and it makes me nervious.

I think the problem is that we live in such a litigious society and people often feel very insecure in their work, so if they make a mistake they think their job's on the line. Covering it up is not the answer, because it will be found out anyway.

Like you, Barbara, if I make a mistake at work (and I can actually remember doing it - which is a minor miracle these days), then I will admit to it, but that's because I know I work for a small, family-run company with old fashioned values.

Move over and lend us your flannel.....

You are right Buzz we are living in a blame culture society. When I started work at my present firm 23 years ago although it is part of a much bigger operation there were only about 60 in the work force. If something went wrong they went to the relevant department and all sorted it out amicably together.

There are now over 200 staff and more departments and lots more pressure from the head company in USA. It seems the more people are put under pressure the quicker they look for someone to blame for their cock ups.

I only run the canteen there so don't have the same kind of problems but I hear everyone elses as they often come in to offload over a cuppa. It was so much more friendly years ago and its a shame even though its got bigger that they can't work together to thrash out their problems.


As for the child/parent/teacher totally agree a childs bad behaviour should be sorted out before they start school where they should have learnt respect for their elders.

I think our employment legislation has a lot to do with it. The various disciplinary/dismissal laws were brought in to protect the workforce, but they are too onerous for employers.

Larger companies now tend to treat any misdemeanour formally to avoid falling foul of procedure and risking potential claims for unfair dismissal further down the line.

You end up with people either trying to cover up to avoid disciplinary action, or pushing it in the hope of a payoff.

I remember when I first got to Singapore and I saw an interview with Lee Kuan Yew (ex leader in Singapore) and a British interviewer. He had made a policy mistake and reversed it a year later. I don't remember the exact details, but it went something like this:

Interviewer: So, your policy on such and such didn't work
LKY: No
I: So why did you do it
LKY: I thought it was good at the time, but I realised later I F'd up, so I reversed it
I: So you made a mistake
LKY: Yup
I: Do you feel it is acceptable for the leader of a country to make such a mistake
LKY: (laughing) Yup. Happens all over the world. You don't know that??
I: Do you feel you have made any other mistakes?
LKY: Yup, I changed them too. Example.....
I: (at this stage getting out of depth at the directness of the answers) Do you feel this diminishes your credibility?
LKY: No. I'm human. I make mistakes. Don't you?
I: (realises going on the offensive on the interview was one of them....)

And so on and so on. Great to see a politician just admit he screwed up and wonder what the problem was. He had the strength to hold his hands up, say he was wrong, and change it. Interviewer had no angles to attack on.

So refreshing after seeing the british politicians never answer a question.

Yes that is very refreshing Gatubela - and unfortunately very rare.

When I was growing up the one thing that used to really pee me off was if I'd been told off for something I didn't do and when the truth came out my parents never ever apologised to me or admitted they were wrong. I aways make a point that if I have given one of my boys a balling out for something it turns out they didn't do I apologise immediately.

I really do think this is important and not just at home, anywhere.

I so agree cat!

The little ones are wrong some of the time, but so are we, and an apology when we get it wrong can strenghten their self-esteem so much.

I have always made it a policy to be totally truthful when at work. If i mess something up i ALWAYS put my hand up and says that i have messed up and will put it right. Whether this means working late, coming in over the weekend or whatever .... its my mess, i fix it.

Because of this people now know that i am honest and if something happened at work and i said 'sorry, i know nothing about it' they believe me with no hesitation.

Its the way i have been since the day i started work. Honesty is the best policy.

The only time i have lied at in my personal life was when i broke my mum and dads very expensive stereo system. I was about 17 years old and still lived at home. I tried to open the CD drawer, pressed too hard and it fell off :blush: I had just started dating Mr.B at the time, and he turned up and glued it back in place. I never have admitted my guilt ... and i should of done as i still feel pants about it :sad:

I remember when I first got to Singapore and I saw an interview with Lee Kuan Yew (ex leader in Singapore) and a British interviewer. He had made a policy mistake and reversed it a year later.
This is the same Lee Kuan Yew that had an invincible parliamentary majority, the law system in his pocket, and who would sue opposition politicos into bankruptcy if they so much as dared criticise him?

Easy to say "I f'd up" if there's not even the slightest chance of being held to account for it :)

Regarding Buzz's original question, I don't think myself that people today are any more or less responsible than they used to be. Dodging the blame is basic human nature, no?

This is the same Lee Kuan Yew that had an invincible parliamentary majority, the law system in his pocket, and who would sue opposition politicos into bankruptcy if they so much as dared criticise him?



Yup. Majority as most Singaporeans believed and put their trust in him. He didn't let them down. Democracy anyone?

Law system in his pocket? No. The Singaporean law system is not run by LKY and never was. If he F'd up legally, they would do him too. He set it up that way.

Opposition politicos into bankrupcy? I know the one you mean (Indian name, can't remember it), and he was a crook. Nothing to do with LKY, although the western press liked to make it out that way. He's still around, but noone votes for him as they know he is dodgy.

I don't know why the western view is that the Singaporeans are dumb and will perpetuate a system not in their best interests. LKY's son is now in charge, an election coming up, and expectation of a clean sweep for ALL the seats. Its because Singaporeans believe he is the best guy. Is their belief manipulated? They all have access to the internet and full access to international views and opinions, and the Singapore people make their choice, and it is overwhelming. Who are we to criticise?

You are right Buzz we are living in a blame culture society. When I started work at my present firm 23 years ago although it is part of a much bigger operation there were only about 60 in the work force. If something went wrong they went to the relevant department and all sorted it out amicably together.

There are now over 200 staff and more departments and lots more pressure from the head company in USA. It seems the more people are put under pressure the quicker they look for someone to blame for their cock ups.

I only run the canteen there so don't have the same kind of problems but I hear everyone elses as they often come in to offload over a cuppa. It was so much more friendly years ago and its a shame even though its got bigger that they can't work together to thrash out their problems.


As for the child/parent/teacher totally agree a childs bad behaviour should be sorted out before they start school where they should have learnt respect for their elders.

Hello Mazwad,

My EX boyfriend told me similar stories from his work place, except that some of those who knew of such mistakes would try to find someone else to correct them, to no avail. These were costly mistakes to make as the jobs at hand had to be done again. I also gathered that within contracts of an industrial nature an allowance was made in the pricing for errors. So therefore the work force were under no real pressure to get things right first time.

Also as this was a family run business most of the cock ups were in house, the family held all the admin and managerial positions, and it was well known on the shop floor who the dimwits were. Year on year and nothing was ever done about it.

The biggest cover up was in brushing it off under the pretence, 'oh well, we have made allowances for human error'. In another way though had they not done this than getting it perfect 100% of the time would have meant people being laid off when contracts were met early. In emploment terms this is known as an 'at will' or 'lifo' type job.

Maureen
Northern angel.

I don't know why the western view is that the Singaporeans are dumb and will perpetuate a system not in their best interests.
I didn't say that Singaporeans are dumb - obviously Singapore has been extremely successful since the War. What I said was that it's easy for Lee to admit to a cockup when there's no possibility of him suffering any consequenses for it.

Here's an interesting article on Singapore democracy:
http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040630-120235-5420r.htm

Washington, DC, Jun. 30 (UPI) -- Singapore has long been touted as a shining model of efficiency and progress for developing countries. Yet democracy is a myth even though this tiny city-nation may be the financial success story of Southeast Asia, according to opposition leader Chee Soon Juan.

Juan, secretary-general of the Singapore Democratic Party, who was speaking Tuesday at a forum hosted by the New America Foundation, a Washington-based think tank, is currently being sued by senior minister Lee Kuan Yew for defamation.

During the 2001 general election, Juan asked, in public and without a permit, of the whereabouts of $10 billion of the taxpayers' money, allegedly lent to Indonesia's Suharto regime in 1997. The senior minister and Prime Minister Goh Chok Tong immediately filed a lawsuit, accusing him of implying dishonesty in governmental dealings.

Unable to find a willing lawyer, Juan was forced to represent himself. However, he was not required to go to trial. The plaintiffs applied for a summary judgment and were awarded the case, with damages of $500,000, without ever going to court. The payment will bankrupt him, he said. Those with bankruptcies cannot run for public office.

The article goes on to talk about government control over the media, police detentions and gerrymandering.

In another way though had they not done this than getting it perfect 100% of the time would have meant people being laid off when contracts were met early.


I've read that several times and still don't know what it means

In emploment terms this is known as an 'at will' or 'lifo' type job.

In employee terms maybe. In employment terms, lifo is normally used as 'Last In, First Out' as a possible criterion for redundancy selection.

Hello Fee,

Yes, you are right. 'At will and lifo', type jobs do exist. In the main they affect the construction industry, civil engineering contracts, road and traffic repairs, manufacturing increases according to new and uncertain contract obligations, and last but not least the entertainment industry.

Also some contracts, will run for less than 13 weeks and the employer is not obliged to give you a run down of your employment contract due to the temporary nature of the job. There is no recourse from these jobs either when they reach the end. However, some of these jobs can have very lucrative pay packages which tends to satisfy the needs of the workers taking them on. Ex gratia payments used to be well known in such circumstances but employers have cut back or cut these out.

I regularly use entertainment agents as a means to securing work for those I mentor, than the temporary nature of the work they take on becomes that little bit more viable to do.

In back tracking to the comment about things not being perfect, this could well be a case of deliberate incompetence. A spanner in the works. Also a way to ensure that pricing does not drop below and into unmanageable figures. An unwritten code of practice. If ever questioned than the firm will probably put it down to having a trainee in post, alongside proportedly qualified supervisory persons.

As a specialist in your field of human resources you are bound to have come across areas you'd seriously question.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Still don't understand what you mean about prices dropping to 'unmanageable figures'.

If the company has agreed a price with the client, then surely that's the price? Your post infers that increased production costs would reduce this figure. I don't see how.

And what's a 'run-down' of an employment contract?

I am responsible to a fault. If I have to cut between people talking in the store, when they should be somewhere else..., I say excuse me. I say excuse me quite often if I feel I've gotten in someone's way or caused them some minor inconvienience (sp-Pats!). Just recently at daycare I had a mother come in late on a Friday and she has 3 yr. old Satanic twin boys and they BRAWL like men. Well, they got into one of these brawls while they should have been sitting watching tv, I have to separate them and in the process hit this darling little girl in the chin with my elbow. I feel like :pooh: and am not sure how her mother will react. The twins mother comes in, they are sitting by me in time out, she's in a mood and smarts off that 'she's tired of this crap and you (the twins) won't have to put up with it much longer', she's saying this to 3 yr olds!!. My mouth gapes and I recover to explain the situation, all to no avail. I almost went out to the parking lot to jump all in her:pooh: , but refrained. I got her home number and called her later. She starts crying b/c her and the boys dad (they are not together and don't have his last name) had 'got into it' and she says she's mad at my director b/c she has complaints and can never catch her. She has her home and cell # mind you. I literally beg her to stay and try to calm her down, although I think she is a bitch and she acts like everyone should pity her b/c she has twins and no husband and she deserves a martyrs crown...wah, wah, wah. I was furious to say the least at having to 'pet her'. Come Monday, my director makes a point to stop and ask her to tell her what complaints she has and what she can do, ect. and the STUPID COW says she has no problems with us, I had caught her on a bad day and when I said that b/c of the boys fighting I'd hit the other child and she didn't she this as their fault...it was MINE!! But I'm a good teacher and I give info and I was nice to call her and yada, yada, yada. So next time I'm telling her to get her crazy fat bum outta there and don't come back!!
On other fronts, I always take responsibilty for my actions and even for others if it will keep the peace. Sometimes I'm get all Taurean and throw down on someone for screwing up but I'm a lover not a fighter...if you believe that, I got some waterfront property in Nepal...:w00t:

I'd forgotten how much responsibility affects you.

Even after working for 2 weeks as a supernumery student, I have come home and woken up in the night thinking, "Did I, or didn't I do so and so" and it's gonna get worse when I get my full time job. Apparently you start dreaming of the machines beeping all the time!

Reminds me of the dreams I used to get when I was pregnant. Leaving the baby at home all day. Forgetting if you've fed it, that kind of thing.

I thought of this very thread today as we have a 10 yr. old boy who has no father-firgure in his life and he's very obtuse and has to have everything his way in games and talks to the adults like :pooh: , even me although I've told him I would proudly do jail time to beat his tail like he needs it. Of course, EVERYBODY is always to blame, NEVER him...he's supposed to be on probation pending dismissal...we'll see as the director has a soft spot for him. Thank goodness he's only there after school BUT summer break is coming up...I may be posting from Parchman Womens Prison....:bag:

We left the restaurant this afternoon, backpack with nappies wetwipes all organised for fast access, baby carrier, everything well organised and military fashion. Highly responsible. Got out to the pavement, looked at each other, whoops. Left baby behind.

Not good.

Reminds me of the dreams I used to get when I was pregnant. Leaving the baby at home all day. Forgetting if you've fed it, that kind of thing.

LOL!! Similar, but waking up in the night after you've fed the baby and, being so tired, not being able to remember putting her back in her cot and frantically searching the bed for her.

We left the restaurant this afternoon, backpack with nappies wetwipes all organised for fast access, baby carrier, everything well organised and military fashion. Highly responsible. Got out to the pavement, looked at each other, whoops. Left baby behind.

Not good.

Larf..opposite of this, I can remember when Ross was a baby (now 10) and dashing into the front room and crying to Mr Cat.."where's Ross, where's Ross" . Ross was on my hip, I was holding him.

Similar story Gaty...took eldest to school - reception unit- middle one got out of buggy to play whilst I settled eldest into class, left school, collected buggy, got to the school gate and realised buggy was empty. Dashed back to find middle baby still happily playing and the teacher said 'we thought you would be back at some point':blush: :blush:

Yes i agree, i don't think people take responsibility for their actions either and it's crazy for some parents to blame the teachers for their children's behavior but then again some people are too quick to point the finger at the parents too, you know that phrase 'oh i blame the parents' sometimes it's the parents fault but that's not always the case.

Not sure this is the right thread for this, but I have spent so much time in my life trying to understand how my head works, that I started to wonder why we don't teach the mechanics of things like responsibility as a core subject in schools.

Its affects our lives as much as reading and writing. Its non judgemental by definition, non religious (although reference can be made to how the religions try to teach the same message by different means and the idea of a god), in fact would educate on the difference and smiliarities of all the religions and their philosophies so religious tolerance should be a by-product if done correctly, teaches perception and the power of decision making. That truth is primarilly to ones self and only from that basis can we make promises to others(aka understanding more what marriage vows or any other sort of promise means, and that the only way to keep those promises is to be honest to ourselves and understand more that what we want we make, others dont give us).

Just seems so many problems coem from children not being taught the basic humanities. Schools responsibility? Generations have been lost and we cannot rely on parents any more as many are ignorant themselves. The ultimate cost is to society, so I believe it is an investment society should make to start teaching our children what they should be learning at home (but aren't).

How strange. Had no idea I would end up saying that as my tendency is just to frown on the parents and wish they would be more responsible, but just got the idea that insisting all parents take responsibility is a hopeless pipe dream.

I thought of this very thread today as we have a 10 yr. old boy who has no father-firgure in his life and he's very obtuse and has to have everything his way in games and talks to the adults like :pooh: , even me although I've told him I would proudly do jail time to beat his tail like he needs it. Of course, EVERYBODY is always to blame, NEVER him...he's supposed to be on probation pending dismissal...we'll see as the director has a soft spot for him. Thank goodness he's only there after school BUT summer break is coming up...I may be posting from Parchman Womens Prison....:bag:

Hello msgirl,

I hope you don't end up posting from Parchman Womens Prison.

There must be a line of firmness you can take which doen't involve wanting to beat the living daylights out of this boy. One of my charges has to leave choir early to get home, because of a curfew. But something tells me that the choir rules have been good for him. I did vouch for him once to, over christmas when he would have missed a concert because of the curfew. He's behaved and done as he should over the year so very soon this will be lifted.

Hoping the next few weeks work out, maybe he needs a long talk with a male, to give him a role model to look up to.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Hello msgirl,

I hope you don't end up posting from Parchman Womens Prison.

There must be a line of firmness you can take which doen't involve wanting to beat the living daylights out of this boy. One of my charges has to leave choir early to get home, because of a curfew. But something tells me that the choir rules have been good for him. I did vouch for him once to, over christmas when he would have missed a concert because of the curfew. He's behaved and done as he should over the year so very soon this will be lifted.

Hoping the next few weeks work out, maybe he needs a long talk with a male, to give him a role model to look up to.

Maureen
Northern angel.


Mo, although I'm being quite facetitious about 'beating this child', we've tried everything from A to Z. My Director's husband is a teacher who works with the ISS (in school suspension) students and he's a preacher as well. Josh, the boy has got issues and deep in my mind and heart I try to keep that in my mind but he has taken to pushing around the 3-5 yr. old children in the afternoons when we have mixed playground time and it's ALWAYS their fault or someone else's. I've given him positive feedback and negative feedback and he's just one of those people I believe who's going to grow up with a 'Napolean Syndrome' bullying attitude. I'm at the point that when he starts his :pooh: , I just go get the Director or her hubby. He's had his caregiver (who is a younger girl in college) in tears and he's had me so mad I could have been on a blind rampage. I know he feeds on any attention, negative or positive, but his language, disposition, and treatment of others is very unacceptable, father or no father. I came up from an alcoholic father and a mother who had to raise 7 children and be beaten on a regular basis. I had it in my mind that I WOULD NOT be in that position. All of my brothers and my sister live like Southern White Trash and I don't and THEY think I'm WRONG, above my raising, too big for my britches, hoity toity, you name it. You can overcome and you can do better. You have to be RESPONSIBLE and you have to WANT TO DO BETTER. That's where people get the saying 'pulling ones self up by thier boot straps.' I acknowledge the nuture/nature argument to a point, but you CAN do better and be better no matter your situation!!

Hello msgirl,

Oh God, I wish something could be done to help you in this situation, as it sounds like you have all had your patience tried to the limit, and this is it the end of the road.

You have spoken of Napoleon syndrome quite a lot in your posts, which is also worrying. Remembering here your commentary on Raider Dingo. I'm certain after a few weeks of trail and error, I'd probably give up.Or want to do a runner. Does this boy have what we call Hypertension Deficit Disorder, as in Britain we have rising numbers of children who are diagnosed with this who take Ritalin to keep them calm.

There are also two polarities here the first being that some of the children diagnosed with this come from poor backgrounds live in impoversihed areas with families on benefits, the second polarity is that there are children with a very high IQ who have a low attention threshold as they are always in search of things to do. In either case they have to be kept occupied with activities that are taxing to the mind or they are kept calm on Ritalin. In Britain this is classed as a medical problem.

Too many years ago to state, but days of my innocence or ignorance. I used to think that there was no such ailment, and instead that these were the modern version of problem children born into problem families in socially problematic areas. No disciplin at home, no disciplin at school, a complete mess up. I was also convinced that these children were the criminals of tommorrow. But as I have become more enlightened over the years and reflective upon my own working class background, I would take serious offence at being branded alongside a minority of people who are criminals or who live lives of people who are not willing to work towards self improvement. The nurture nature debate therefore is not completely satisfactory in finding answers.

I hope you and yours manage to find some that are to the benefit of all concerned.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Mo, when I use that term for RD and this boy I'm discussing, I think the next to the last paragraph in this description (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_complex) is the point I'm trying to get accross.

Mo, when I use that term for RD and this boy I'm discussing, I think the next to the last paragraph in this description (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_complex) is the point I'm trying to get accross.

Hello msgirl,

I thought as much, the article is apt. I do admit though that I sometimes try to look beyond what the eye sees, hence my earlier post on behaviour/medical problems. I know this will sound very Victorian but treating probems as medical issues or subjects for medical and pyscological research is what our ancesters would have done. Especially, if we are:- a) defeated over an issue, or b) appearing lost as to what to do next about it.

In some ways this will sound very retrograde, and I am loathe to suggest it, but maybe it would be a responsible and correct action to take, if disciplin was harsh in the instances you describe. Has your State out ruled corporal punishment in schools - because once received that could be just the deterrent needed to control abhorent behaviour towards others. Do you feel this to be the right thing to do?

I suppose anyone religiously might think that to spare the rod spoils the child. Whenever, I deal with awkward children, I refuse to give them attention, and disciplin as far as I've used it has been the withdrawal of priviledges and free time, sometimes the introduction of a mundane and lonesome task. I suppose we all have it in us to cane or strap a child, but this action is drastic and in some cultural groups totally unacceptable. but if in circumstances where a child is abusive, violent, completely out of order is it or is it not responsible to refer to drastic measures?

Whatever action you take the very best of luck.

Maureen
Northern angel.