http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4974460.stm

This won't mean much to our US members, but according to the above report there's a certain amount of confusion among the Brits as to whether they are working class or middle class.

For instance:

"It (the report) found 36% of builders regarded themselves as being middle class, while 29% of bank managers said they were working class.

The report said around 2.67m people considered themselves working class even though they were among the top 20% of richest Britons, while 500,000 who earned more than £100,000 a year also thought of themselves as being working class. "

Do you think this is a sure sign that the class system is breaking down, do you think that it is just an archaic remnant from a different age, or do you think it's still a fundemental, and possibly useful, part of British society?

DO we really know what the terms working class and middle class actually mean?

Are you confused as to where you belong?

Interesting you bring this up, Swerve. We were talking about this at work the other day.

When I was young and I asked my Mum what they all meant, I seem to remember that she defined working class as working for someone else and often rented your property; middle class you worked for yourself and owned your own property; upper class were aristocracy.

Very simple terms, I know. I could call my self lower middle class, just because my parents both worked, but my parents' parents were shop owners.

I would have no problem being pigeon holed as working class, either, because I don't think it matters as much as it used to in the days of that TW3 sketch with the Two Ronnies and John Cleese. I work for a living, therefore I am working class.

I think the class system is definitely breaking down, if not already broken.

The original definition of working class is anyone who sells their labour/time for money. Which includes most people. Middle classes are those which own the capital/assets.

Sounds about right by my understanding too, Seab. I have edited my post re the property owning bit because I forgot that. Hope you don't mind. :blush:

The original definition of working class is anyone who sells their labour/time for money. Which includes most people. Middle classes are those which own the capital/assets.

Mind you, that isn't how the class distinction was generally understood when I was growing up. For instance, if you worked in a factory say on an assembly line, you were working class. If you were a surgeon you were middle class.

THere was also the issue of what your family background was. For instance if you came from a middle class background and went to work as a window cleaner you might well still be considered middle class by virtue of your family.

I think there were identity problems for people who came from a poorer working class background who went on to go to university and get a profession - maybe as a solicitor, an engineer, linguist and so on - considered as middle class professions yet the working class roots were still there and may have caused a sense of division between the person and their family or if not, a form of identity crisis for the person concerned.

Found the class system in England very interesting. Worth comparing to India and Chinese society. My take on Chinese is that it is mainly economic power that defines society level - the Chinese royal families are the billionaires. India more caste, and birth. Not sure what happens if you are the lowest caste and get rich (can that even happen in Indian society? It must be starting to happen).

I read English class definition as largely historic, the lines definitely blurred now due to increasing wealth. But historically, I saw it as:

Working: No or low assets, meet needs through income
Middle: Assets, but need to work. Income exceeds needs, assets accumulate
Upper: Assets. No need to work.

I heard the stories from the hubs grandparents where money was saved in a box in the kitchen. Income was weekly, and had to last the week, with rent collector day, daily shopping budget, save a pound a week for the yearly trip to Butlins, half a crown to the guy who knocked on the door each week for life insurance. As much food as possible grown on the "allotment", still talk about who could eat meat more than once a week aka the "Sunday Joint", except Friday, which, of course, was fish and chips day or a piece of mackeral or cod from wherever. Definitely working class.

Then hubs father started a clothes shop, and ended up owning his semi detached house and although the working class lifestyle didn't change much, enough was saved to send hubs to a public school (same one as John Cleese funnily enough). The public school led to university and the professions, and the class barrier was broken (although I still catch him eating a chip butty every now and then, but then he catches me eating chicken bones and fish tails too, which hints to my parents past). He tells me that when he first got to the public school his nickname was "farmer boy" as he had a strong regional accent, so he lost his accent quickly and then was called "little mr posh" at home, so he had to learn to speak in two ways, one at home, and one at school. Now he is good at accents (eg learning other languages) and puts it down to having to speak two languages as a child "Bristolian" and "English". He can still speak with his mother in a language I do not understand (thats the Bristolian thing, although I started to pick it up after a while...to dap down, to emp out, wurrr bis, deece bisnt, etc ).

The English mother-in-law still insists on living within her old age pension, even though she has a small fortune stashed (whos only purpose seems to be for her to worry about it, refer Happiness thread). She gets stressed by leaving lights on, throwing anything away (scape the mould off and fry it up with the rest of the leftovers). Etc. War child mentality, which sounded like another trip as my grandparents lived through the Japanese occupation vs Nazi bombings. Some similarities.

Interesting culture.

I had first hand experience of class distinction and as SF said, it can lead to an identity crisis.

I came from a poor background, lived in the slum part of West Kensington, outside loo shared by 3 families, no bathroom etc. We had hand-me downs and very little else. My mother did cleaning and my father shifted scenery at the BBC. I was happy enough with all the others in a similar position.

Then I passed the 11+ and got sent to a posh Grammar School equipped in second hand uniform. It was there that I suddenly became aware that we were poor. I discovered (on being invited the spend the weekend with one particular friend) that vests weren't supposed to have holes in them and that some kids had "Sunday" clothes and lots of nice things that I never had. I was embarrassed to invite her to my home where my dear mother served fish paste sandwiches and swiss roll. A world away from the lavish spread I'd had at her home.

I cringe at the thought now but I was ashamed when my parents came to Parent Evening and I noticed how shabbily dressed they were compared to my other friends whose parents had fur coats and posh cars. I was embarrassed that they weren't well spoken and my dad drove an old converted taxi.

My life was a misery, I didn't fit in at the grammar school and when I went home my 'friends' called me a snob. I started playing up and not wanting to go to school. After a year of problems and being sent to a child psychologist (who made me do intelligence tests) they had no idea why I hated the school but they let me leave at the end of the school year and I went to the local Central School with my friends and I was a lot happier.

The trouble is, once you know a different kind of life you become much more aware of your place in society (at the bottom).

I went to work at the BBC which was near where I lived. They were all "daaaahling" this and "sweetie" that. I re-invented myself. My mother (not mum) worked in an office (I didn't say that she cleaned it) and my Father had left us by that time.

I learned a lot from my Boss. He used to correct me if I said I was going for my dinner ("it's lunch my dear, dinner is the evening meal and tea is only taken with the children in the nursery") and he gave me a book to read called U and Non-U by Nancy Mitford. It had a lot of useless information in it like whether it was U (upperclass) to say toilet or lavatory or (non-U to say serviette or napkin) :huh:

I suppose the class distinction thing affected my whole life. I was so ashamed of where I lived that I wouldn't take home any boy that I felt would have been shocked by it. I married a man who was one of my own kind but his lack of culture and finesse used to grate on me. (How snobby does that sound eh?)

I don't know if it was just a London thing. I must say that since moving down to the south coast there doesn't seem to be such a great divide. All the children, no matter what their upbringing, seem to have the same classless accent.

Right I've finished - you can wake up now :laugh:

I thought that was really interesting Crit - you should write a book about your experiences :)

I can just see you whizzing round 'swinging London' in your BBC days.

Edit: I've no rep left for you :wallbash:

I thought that was really interesting Crit - you should write a book about your experiences :)

I can just see you whizzing round 'swinging London' in your BBC days.

Edit: I've no rep left for you :wallbash:

Thanks Fee - I'm glad it didn't send you to sleep :) Yes, it was a great time and I was all white boots, mini skirts and as trendy as I could afford at the time.

It's a shame that when you have the looks and the figure you're usually young and broke and by the time you can afford the nice things the looks and figure have gone on the downward slope :cry:

I did start to write a book about my life once but it was a bit too steamy and might have upset a lot of people still living :)

OK...Appalachian American question here...do you consider yourself under a 'class system' or a 'caste system'?? I've seen a lot of British tv and read books and it seems to come down to who you 'come from', family wise. But that could be tv and books and not the real truth. If you were at a posh party would you feel 'out of place' or would you hop in and just go with the flow?? I'm seriously asking this b/c I really hate class systems. We have 'blue-collar' or working folks, and 'white collar' who are your bigwig execs and doctors, etc. We have the class that survives somehow below the US determined poverty level, they are the 'poor'. It seems the 'white collars' get all the tax breaks and etc., especially since Dubbya's been in office.

Hello Msgirl,

I would love to believe that a class system does not exist in Britain. But in actual fact it is stronger than ever.

However, it would be true to say that there has been a shift. Within the social strata. In Britan we have something called the General household survey, and this records income scales for the heads of household plus numerous other things determining of socially democratic wealth as opposed to absolute poverty. If we were to accept the income changes within as being significant than one would understand why so many people believe they have risen out of the class to which they were born. The definition between working and middle class becoming more blurred as a result of being blinded by statistics.

Some of the major changes have taken place in relation to those jobs considered to be part of the upper strata or working class jobs. Hence, teachers, who would object to working for say, Social charter rates of pay are paid incomes similar to some in middle class occupations such as middle line managers, consultants in industry. Also policeman also fall a little below this category.

Income levels are the source of the confusion, because in some ways those skilled, semi skilled and non skilled workers, can also receive lucrative pay scales and feel that as a result they have entered the middle classes. The reality is they haven't but they are the 'nouveau riche'. Newly rich, educated proletarait. It makes very interesting conversation listening to members of golf clubs who is acceptable and who is not, from the old guard.

The real worry in Britain is the growing numbers of a fourth class, these are people who have never worked, whose backgrounds are non working parents, and likewise they live in run down areas, with high crime rates, claim benefits and some will supplement this with black market jobs on the fiddle.

Proof that we have a class divide can be found when realising that very few people today can afford to rise onto the property ladder. Room rentals have risen over the last five years and are being rented at very high premiums throughout Britain, meanwhile uncertainty about housing has led to excessive property price rises which have out stripped incomes.

In addition to the rise of the fourth class, another problem which is due to being unaccounted for at present is the number of properties falling into the inheritence tax threshold, causing some impoverishment over the payment of inheritence tax from such beneficaries who to inherit there childhood homes must pay up. Social mobility can be hindered in a number of ways, this is just one of many.

In laymans terms, the working classes are those who work for an employer , having an occupation - rent accommodation because they can not afford to buy .

The middle classes are those who are in highly paid jobs, or who work for themselves in a profession as opposed to an occupation. Apart from this they also fund various insurance policies from income guarantees, to medical insurance, home contents insurance, life insurance, and one or more private pension or ISA's. They also believe in buying there own home and do so at the earliest opportunity.

The richest in society have always been those born into wealth who have no need to work. Over the last 50 years though many more have entered this rich list from the sporting and entertainment arenas.

Maureen
Northern angel.

I think the class system is definitely breaking down, if not already broken.

I would love to believe that a class system does not exist in Britain. But in actual fact it is stronger than ever.

Discuss please.

From my own point of view I believe to a certain extent it has broken down.
I fit NA's profile of middle class except for the fact I only run a canteen paid by my employers and my husband is a factory worker.

Maggie Thatcher was partly responsible for breaking down the class system, when she allowed people to buy their council houses raising them up a level to becoming homeowners.

We were part of this and witnessed how much more care people were taking of their property. First new nets appeared at the window followed by a new door then smartening up the garden. At one time you could walk through a council estate and pick out who owned and who rented.

The point of these changes was that they were things that could be seen by everyone therefore announcing look at us we have moved up a level.

I would say the changes started in the 60's and now feel the class system is virtually non existant.

My upbringing was similar in some ways to Crit. Nine of us lived in a two bedroomed bungalow and were considered poor, all clothes from jumble sales and dad at times worked at three jobs, but I was never hungry and didn't consider myself poor then.

Like Crit I passed my 11 plus and went to high school, it was there I was made to feel different and become seduced by the thought of a better lifestyle. My best friend owned her own pony and I thought that was a sign of real wealth. In reality her parents worked long hours in their own shop so I suppose they were no better off in terms of time for themselves than my parents were.

My father eventually owned his bungalow and stayed in a job he hated as it had the civil servant status and a nice little pension. I guess the class system mattered to him as he thought being a homeowner raised him up a level.

I spent just a year in England, and can say from everything that I heard that the class system has changed significantly.

Stronger than ever? Not from what I heard and understand.

Fourth class? There was always that fourth class. Hubs father was one of four sons and one was a "rogue and scoundrel", and his kids ended up in prison etc. That was 60s. Hubs father was the "gentleman" of the family and resulted in his family moving up.

He hates snobbery though, the attitude of some that they are inherently better than others. But he always points out that that attitude comes from insecurity and is a crutch for the insecure of "noble" birth to hang on to. We move in many circles, and I found some of the upper class we hung out with to be extremely knowledgeable and learned people though. Strange habits at times, often archaic (never understood the fascination with hunting), and great use of the English language often. I got to meet the "proletariat" at our local in England, and that was a completely mixed bunch indeed, all ages, all classes, all educational levels. All divorced! (except the younger ones who hadnt had time yet) Maybe thats why they are in the pub.

From my own point of view I believe to a certain extent it has broken down.
I fit NA's profile of middle class except for the fact I only run a canteen paid by my employers and my husband is a factory worker.

Maggie Thatcher was partly responsible for breaking down the class system, when she allowed people to buy their council houses raising them up a level to becoming homeowners.

We were part of this and witnessed how much more care people were taking of their property. First new nets appeared at the window followed by a new door then smartening up the garden. At one time you could walk through a council estate and pick out who owned and who rented.

The point of these changes was that they were things that could be seen by everyone therefore announcing look at us we have moved up a level.

I would say the changes started in the 60's and now feel the class system is virtually non existant.

My upbringing was similar in some ways to Crit. Nine of us lived in a two bedroomed bungalow and were considered poor, all clothes from jumble sales and dad at times worked at three jobs, but I was never hungry and didn't consider myself poor then.

Like Crit I passed my 11 plus and went to high school, it was there I was made to feel different and become seduced by the thought of a better lifestyle. My best friend owned her own pony and I thought that was a sign of real wealth. In reality her parents worked long hours in their own shop so I suppose they were no better off in terms of time for themselves than my parents were.

My father eventually owned his bungalow and stayed in a job he hated as it had the civil servant status and a nice little pension. I guess the class system mattered to him as he thought being a homeowner raised him up a level.

Hello Mazwad,

You have an extremely interesting family history.

I personally believe the delienation of the class system comes from the inauguration of the Welfare service. I believe they were called the work exchanges. Certainly, there records of who was claiming from the parish was followed through by these semi officials of state.

They were thus reorganised and early pensions allowances, and dole payments came in for those who could not support themselves from a source of work. These people were not necessarily the poor of any city, they were the excess population that arrived into cities with the promises of work or in search of work. They were originally rural and agricultural labourers. A movement that was evolutionary as opposed to revolutionary took place in the country estates, enclosures and the development of agriculutural mechanisation forced a reduction in need for surplus labour, children also were included in this. Plus the bonded labour of women.

In local history studies some areas managed to have a dual economy, this meant some families could support themselves via working in manufacturing, chemical industries and when work was slack at harvest time out in the rural community. These people were the backbone of the working classes. The working class.

On the subject of housing at the turn of the century renting was the most popular way to financing a home, whether that home was an artisan dwelling built by an employer, or whether it was a home built by a private builder wishing to earn an income from an estate. The early labour party, the methodist movement, and early unions all advocated a hard days work for a fair days pay, with idealistically some small corner of land you could call your own. If you managed to build your own home you suddenly became a builder, unfortunately with the development of town councils and guilds - your home may well have defied improvement.Your home may also have defied improvement if it were tied to your job.

However, the development of service providers became essential, Britain was riddled with shopkeepers. Shopkeepers who likewise felt they were above the working classes, and bought into the philosopy and sometimes religion, offered by Methodism, Calvinism, Unionists. As such these people became the first protectors of there labours, it would be these people who objected to rates, policing. The dockyards areas were also fiercely against any form of renewal, development, policing etc,. They advocated containment.

The working classes who were the service providers there fore built a class wall to section off those who stood the chance of owning the means of production and being in sole control of there labours, from those who weren't. From this section of the working classes came the upper strata of occupations, the fierce protection of the rise of the professions through the language of qualification. Language becoming another barrier along with education.

The middle class was formed from a fusion between those with landed interests, manufacturing industries and service providers for towns and cities.There is also some evidence that jobs for the old boys would be considered worthy of middle class status. Today this is apparent in placibo authorities or organisations which exist in every city throughout Britain.

Some of this is still relevant today. Hoping this helps any questions you feel need discussing Survivorfan. Apologies to both of you for extremely long post.

Mrs Thatcher you say was responsible for breaking down class systems by allowing the sale of council houses. This is not necessarily 100% true, Mrs Thatcher herself was a product of the shopkeepers strata of social history, what she advocated harkened back to her early days. Days which she herself has referred to as being the good old days, where crime was lower (undetected or hidden in my view) and there was a greater sense of community spirit. (There were fewer care homes, families took care of there own as the role of women was primarily that of carer, housekeeper, nurse etc.) More council houses have been sold under labour with the rise in incomes and the revision of income tax.

Today, you can walk through housing areas that were built in the 1950's and still detect those which have remained council by the uniformity of the front door and the lack of double glazing. Equally there are still large council estates which are run down. But they are run down in two ways the evidence of this fourth class is strong, graffiti on bus shelter glass panes, graffiti on playground walls, tenements or flats which look old before there time. Built by Jerry, and reflective of, some 1960's- 1970's, surveyors and architects drawings gone wrong. Crime rates are still high and social habits form costs to local authorities to provide drug rehabilitation schemes, job training schemes. This is the fourth class, a class without a regular source of earned income caught in the benefits trap.

An increase in the cost of living and the expected rise in the standards of living having created a new wave of poverty when compared to the earnings of those living in say a middle class persons dream close home. Built by Wimpy Persimmon, Barratts etc.

Evidence of changes do exist, I live in a modest area of Newcastle, but my flat was originally a Tyneside Terrace built as artisan dwellings suitable for civil servants, the neighbouring area was also built for the rising numbers of civil servants, administrators and office workers. These two areas are now filled with people whose incomes and job descriptions place them firmly in the middle classes. 90% of these residents are members of professions, upper strata occupations and self employed. The remainder are either the elderly or single parent families. Not far from me though is a council estate with some of the aforesaid problems.

The class system is sadly alive and thriving.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Some of this is still relevant today. Hoping this helps any questions you feel need discussing Survivorfan.

Interesting historical perspective, but no evidence to show that class system 'is stronger than ever'.

Maureen I think you're very much in the minority here. Like many others here i believe the old class system is pretty much dead. I agree with Mazwad that Maggie Thatcher set the ball rolling. Not only with the sale of council houses, but also the destruction of the old production and manufacturing industries (coal, steel, ships, cars, etc) which ultimately turned Britain into a service economy. Also the liberalisation of the University system, so that now the majority of kids look to go to college rather than it being a Middle/Upper Class preserve as it once was.

A few days back I was listening to one of these radio debates and they had an opinion pollster type person, who said that nowadays they don't bother with Working/Middle/Upper class distinctions any more. They're meaningless. He also said they prefer not to use the A/B/C1 etc system either, which is just base don earning power. He thought the most representative way of describing people was by the newspaper they read.

I am so confused....:wacko: , imagine that. I guess I will google the class system in Britian and read what y'all are talking about.

Over here we have Upper class, Middle class, and I believe Working class. Then there are those who are below the poverty level. Of course, we have no title system or entitlement situations. We have 'old monied' families and 'new monied' families. I'll google that as well...:unsure:

Over here we have Upper class, Middle class, and I believe Working class.

...and then Mississippi class :naughty: (http://www.drbukk.com/gmhom/park.html)


You want to get a copy of Watching the English by Kate Fox. Or even better, Jilly Cooper's Class. The latter was written in the 70s and I don't think we've moved forward much at all since then.

The Kate Fox book is a great read - I'd recommend it to anyone. However she does descend into cliche from time to time, especially when talking about class IMO.

We have a very blurred vision of class here in ireland. [must be the guinness].

Historically we had the irish aristocracy with castles and demesnes and serfs and stuff, then the clergy,down a bit to the landed gentry, then the merchants and guildsmen, then the traders and the 'middle folk', which incorporated farmers,fishermen, blacksmiths, publicans etc, then the 'common folk' who would have been servants, or apprentices if they were lucky, and then the poor auld poor...

now we all think we're middle class.