I put this here b/c I'm sure it's likely to get heated responses but that's not why I started it. I'm curious b/c I'm having a 'situation' with oldest child where he has engulfed himself in church and most everything non-secular. He spends most every weekend over at my SIL and BIL's house and BIL is a Baptist preacher. SIL was raised by hubby's step-dad very, very strictly about dating and just all kinds of things and I see these things being reflected in msboy #1. Hubby goes on special occasions and says he has some ideas of his stand on religion but he's not a believer in organized religion. I was raised Catholic and Baptist and that's a Hell on Earth if there ever is/was one. I've tried to believe and 'feel' the feelings and I just think that I need proof. I don't think there is a fairytale place called 'Heaven' or 'Hell'. Where are they at?? We've been to the moon and we've dug deep into the Earth...no one's seen it. I have found 'religious' people to be...superior acting or stalking you to convince you of the 'facts'. There are a great many who are wonderful people. I hope my children find the faith I couldn't find. I have nothing against people who say they feel what they feel is true belief and all that goes with it. I just can't and I am just here and I will live by the Golden Rule of treating people the way I want to be treated and I will die and I will be buried and that will be the end. What are your personal thoughts and feelings and experiences??

Weddings, funerals and Christenings is about my limit.

I believe cos it suits my nature to think that something out there is "controlling" it all!

but I'm far too lazy to argue about it or get up early on a Sunday to go to church!!!!

I confess to only going to church if I have to. Shameful, possibly, but true. I had my boys christened and I was married in church. I'm not sure what I believe, but I wanted to do things the church way "just in case". I like think that there is someone watching over us and I do talk to him on occasion, in thankful as well as needy times.

Even if you are a believer in any God, I don't think it's necessary to gather together with lots of other believers in one place once a week.

Even if you are a believer in any God, I don't think it's necessary to gather together with lots of other believers in one place once a week.

oh come on that's the easy way out of saying that you're too lazy to get out of bed in the morning ... !!

seriously though I do wonder at those people who get married in a church and have their children christened but don't believe in God. what do they believe in and why do they feel the need to have these ceremonies carried out "under the eye of god"?

Like I said, just in case. Just because I don't know for certain in my own mind that there is a God, doesn't mean there isn't. What if I was wrong all along? I feel somehow strangely protected, I suppose. A bit like my RAC subscription. You never know when you might need it.

msg, I spent AGES doing a reply to this and it was really intellectual and promising for me, then the pooter crashed and I lost it all - effing DIAL UP - be glad when I am back using broadband!!!!

So, I will answer again.................................Not!

Too tired to do an in depth one now chicken, full of morphine, and due for the diazepam and final cheeky smoke before I hit the sack! Nitey nite xx:wink2:

msg, I spent AGES doing a reply to this and it was really intellectual and promising for me, then the pooter crashed and I lost it all - effing DIAL UP - be glad when I am back using broadband!!!!

So, I will answer again.................................Not!

Too tired to do an in depth one now chicken, full of morphine, and due for the diazepam and final cheeky smoke before I hit the sack! Nitey nite xx:wink2:


Empty your box...I tried to send you something b/c I WANT to hear your view!! But I wrote this really lovely pm and then got shot down b/c YOUR BOX IS FULL and I couldn't even find how to save it to send later:ranting: !! Anyway, get back to me...XXOO msgirl

I dont know. I think i am.

Im not a church goer, and mainly that was because my parents weren't. I only went to church for weddings and christenings and i didnt watch Songs of Praise :wink2: I didnt get married in church either.

But just lately i think im becoming a little more of a believer. I do like to think that when i die i will meet up with my family / pets again. It makes me happier to think this. I would hate for death to be the end.

I have been to church just a couple of times since moving to Suffolk, and i love it. I havent been to a service, i just go and look around - and i do feel a sense of tranquility.

Me? Religious? Not. In any way shape or form. Not at all. Not even a bit. Never been surer of anything in my life.

I will actively seek out a non-religious educational environment for my children and will answer any questions they may have relating to death, creation and morality as honestly and fairly as I can.

I deplore anyone who uses guilt and the threat of eternal damnation as a method of controlling behaviour, and equally have little respect for those who do not actively follow a religion yet pretend to do so for the sole purpose of getting their children into a "better" school.

Contentious enough for you msg? :pimp:

Me? Religious? Not. In any way shape or form. Not at all. Not even a bit. Never been surer of anything in my life.

I will actively seek out a non-religious educational environment for my children and will answer any questions they may have relating to death, creation and morality as honestly and fairly as I can.

I deplore anyone who uses guilt and the threat of eternal damnation as a method of controlling behaviour, and equally have little respect for those who do not actively follow a religion yet pretend to do so for the sole purpose of getting their children into a "better" school.

Contentious enough for you msg? :pimp:


My contentious thoughts put into words by you floopy!!:yahoo:

Me? Religious? Not. In any way shape or form. Not at all. Not even a bit. Never been surer of anything in my life.

I will actively seek out a non-religious educational environment for my children and will answer any questions they may have relating to death, creation and morality as honestly and fairly as I can.

I deplore anyone who uses guilt and the threat of eternal damnation as a method of controlling behaviour, and equally have little respect for those who do not actively follow a religion yet pretend to do so for the sole purpose of getting their children into a "better" school.

Contentious enough for you msg? :pimp:

Thats pretty much how I feel Floops (hi to Cockers too btw).......and am I right in recalling that you too had an RC upbringing......................

I lean towards the "old ways" now, paganism and living in harmony with the universe and those who inhabit it..........

I'm not religious. When I'm dead, I'm dead.

Actually, I'm more than not religious - I'm decidedly anti-religion. It's based on manipulation and bigotry which far outweighs any personal benefits it may bring to individuals.

I object to having to put up with the consequences of passive religion - I bet it's killed more people than tobacco.


Will I go to hell for saying that?

I'm not religious. When I'm dead, I'm dead.

Actually, I'm more than not religious - I'm decidedly anti-religion. It's based on manipulation and bigotry which far outweighs any personal benefits it may bring to individuals.

I object to having to put up with the consequences of passive religion - I bet it's killed more people than tobacco.


Will I go to hell for saying that?

What was your upbringing Fee - RC too????? just wondering if we have a trend here....................:bag:

Another lapsed RC here too!!

Gave up on religion when my mum died suddenly, really couldn't see the point of it all and it didn't give me any comfort in my time of need either, so I realised that 'my faith' was rather wobbly to say the least.

I have avoided sending the boys to the catholic schools too, although they are all christened catholic, so it's there if they want it later in life, but it will be up to them.
The only time I can be found in a church now is at weddingm christenings or more usually these days funerals.

No - I'm atheist-Protestant out of Sunday C of E. Very high church though. I made my mind up at 14 and refused to be confirmed, at which my dad breathed a sigh of relief.

I made my mind up at 14 and refused to be confirmed, at which my dad breathed a sigh of relief.

OMG it would have been hellfire and brimstone all the way if I had done that - we were still being forced to go to mass when I was 18..........

till Dads drinking got that bad Mum got shot of him and we were all saved from the hypocricy, bigotry and double standards that was our RC church.....with its (now discovered and dealt with, as in he is an RC "retreat" repenting, repenting my a$$ :ranting: ) paedophile priest......who sexually abused several of my friends both male and female while we were all still at school........

so I guess thats why I changed my mind about organised Religion............

I attended sunday school and church and then church youth club until I was about 14, never thought of myself as religious it was just something that most of the kids then did.

When I was 17 pregnant and wanted to get married in church the vicar refused. Maybe I shouldn't have been honest about it but after all the sermons on suffer the little children and all that, they would prefer mine be born out of wedlock. A few months later the same vicar ran off with a sunday school teacher, both were married. Mr M and I married in a registry office and will be celebrating our 36th anniversary this year.

These days its just weddings,christenings and funerals for me, as far as I am concerned being helpful and caring to whoever you can counts far more than sitting through a sermon that when it comes down to it is just anothers opinion.

I respect other peoples views and I know that some get great comfort from their belief but its not for me and I don't like people trying to force their opinions on me.

I'm a Christian, so yes....I'm religious

Absolutely not. I find the concept of religion utterly sad and wholly (almost said 'holy' then) reject it, and with reference to Richard Dawkin's recent (and brilliant) two part tv programme 'The Root of All Evil', that title pretty much encapsulates what religion means for me.

To proclaim the existence of God would be to deny the scientific fact of evolution and to dismiss big bang theory and similar theories that account for our existence. I know where my own allegiances lie on that score...sorry God!

It is the refuge of the weak-minded or those who are unwilling to take full responsibility for their own actions. Even if there was a God i think he'd be laughing his ass off at all these sad desperate souls who are devoting all their precious time to worshipping in his name. And when (or if) we ever discover this chap called God, then it'll probably turn out that he's not called God at all, and instead he'll declare to the world that his actual name is 'Darren' or 'Paul' and that he's "never even bleedin' heard of a 'God' and who's he when he's at home??" and then he'll follow that earth-shattering statement by saying "right! okay!...it's your turn to hide - and remember that the boundaries are strictly the Heavens...and congratulations on your finding me after all this time. I truly was getting bored up there!"

Of course, i respect that we are all different and of differing beliefs and as long as others' beliefs and such aren't an imposition on my own life then that is absolutely fine with me.

It's just that for me 'Bod' makes more sense to me than 'God'

Amen.

'The Root of All Evil', that title pretty much encapsulates what religion means for me.

One could say the same thing about science, although of course it would be an equally sweeping statement.

I was born into the Catholic faith.

Do you know I would give anything to believe so absolutely in something, I really would. But I need proof.

I just dont' get it I'm afraid. I have learn't that the only person I can truly rely on is ME so I do.

I know you religious lot are going to hate me saying this but I honestly don't mean it horridly its just my understanding of religion:

I think people who look to a religion lack in themselves, I am self fullfilled..I totally accept my good points and bad, I dont need to have them forgiven, or accepted by a second person - it is just me...there you go. I know I'm not perfect and will never be, but I do recognise most of my faults and accept them and live with them.

I know you will smile down on me with that look, but I too can reciprocate.

God bless
x

I put this here b/c I'm sure it's likely to get heated responses but that's not why I started it. I'm curious b/c I'm having a 'situation' with oldest child where he has engulfed himself in church and most everything non-secular. He spends most every weekend over at my SIL and BIL's house and BIL is a Baptist preacher. SIL was raised by hubby's step-dad very, very strictly about dating and just all kinds of things and I see these things being reflected in msboy #1. Hubby goes on special occasions and says he has some ideas of his stand on religion but he's not a believer in organized religion. I was raised Catholic and Baptist and that's a Hell on Earth if there ever is/was one. I've tried to believe and 'feel' the feelings and I just think that I need proof. I don't think there is a fairytale place called 'Heaven' or 'Hell'. Where are they at?? We've been to the moon and we've dug deep into the Earth...no one's seen it. I have found 'religious' people to be...superior acting or stalking you to convince you of the 'facts'. There are a great many who are wonderful people. I hope my children find the faith I couldn't find. I have nothing against people who say they feel what they feel is true belief and all that goes with it. I just can't and I am just here and I will live by the Golden Rule of treating people the way I want to be treated and I will die and I will be buried and that will be the end. What are your personal thoughts and feelings and experiences??

Hello msgirl,

When I first saw this question and then read through the thread, I thought I'd have to have some *nerve to make comment, but as you have mentioned that it is your eldest son that is taking an interest in religion. There are only a few areas here that I would worry about.(*Being a sinner is certainly more fun than being an absolute angel or pillar of virtue.)

If you can keep your faith in perspective with whatever your work or career choices are then that is fine. You shouldn't have anything to worry about. If however, it becomes all consuming and your son feels the need to eat, drink and sleep religion, this is a major problem. Religion becomes a problem as it then becomes an obsession which detracts from other important areas of life.

In America I gather there are a number of religions which are cults and as such they demand not just your body. your soul, your labours to forward the faith, but also all of your income potential and some cases inheritences and family financial support. In view of having read your views about religion in general I can't see you wanting to finance a religious career or your son joining a cult sect.

The Baptist movement is an evangelical based religion, you spread the word or reach out and become Baptised as an adult. The religion teaches and itself takes on the premis that once you become an adult you should know what your core beliefs are and the difference between right and wrong - there is no question of an in between. In its cult statis it is a strict religion, no sex before marriage, all alcohol drugs etc is bad for you, abstinence is a virtue. It is not acceptable for moderation in all things. (This is an excuse to live a sinful life.)

The core source of control at the base of the Baptist movement is led by a qualified ecclesiastic elder, he is not a lay preacher as with Methodism. He is the head of a committee of other senior religious figures. These people believe like Quaker elders that they are the chosen ones, fit to represent god here on earth and on the day of judgement they believe the measure of there good deeds and adherence to the life of John the Baptist earns them there place at the right hand side of god.

Because the Baptist religion is evangelical it can become charismatic towards its leaders, once people are esconced it could also prove problematical to leave behind should your son decide it is not for him.

Baptist, Evangelical, *Euconomenical, Methodism, Quakerism, Free Church, Seven day eventists, Church of Scientology, and a few others, are all off shoots from the Protestant movement/Calvinist movement.

Hoping all is well and that your son has some clear goals about what he would like from his education, without allowing religion to fill in the gaps.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Why the need to explain the Baptist faith to msgirl?

I was raised Catholic and Baptist
Just curious.

Hello fee,

Why indeed. Msgirl says that she was raised Catholic and Baptist.

I was raised and Christened C of E, Church of England, but my primary schooling was very close to Oxford set almost Catholiscism.what some would call high church. Miss morning assembly and the Father would beat you. Religious instruction formed a major part of my early education. Yet my School was called Christ Church C of E primary school. At the latter end of the Victorian era and the start of the 20th century my schools history was that of a Church school, prior to the education acts 1909 1911 1914 and so on, at which point it fell into the board or early education committees. This is still a primary school today, and my happiest memory of it is playing on the roof.The area has always had a predominant number of resident Roman Catholics, hence the church attached to the school would run various types of service including two masses. One for the benefit of Protestants the other a Catholic mass. Catholiscism has the Pope as its figure head, supreme ruler and is a faith which honours women as long as they stay pure.

As a child I went to Sunday School the Gospel Hall, an evangelist come methodist mission. (Not Mahogany or Wesleyian Methodism) All very cheerful and very happy clappy. It was entertaining gave rise and fulfilment to my musical needs. This was against an austere working class background in an area where housing was overcrowded, the people impoverished of a decent education and work opportunities and impoverished in terms of worldly goods. Religion was still important therefore in the lives of ordinary people. The Hall was full three times every Sunday and this was in the raging 60's decade.

I still go to Church but I have a preference towards the less austere. When away in Yorkshire I go to a Methodist Church in Withersea, it is still 2/3 rds full of a Sunday. Witheresea is like taking a step back in time a seaside town in the 1960's which is still such today. It is happy clappy, and entertaining. I don't do outreach, I have a personal belief that what the individual believes in is for you. I also believe you should have the freedom of choice to make up your own mind on religious matters. However, I do think your own background helps to formulate, who you are and where you are coming from. Religion can be dogmatic, but only if you allow it to be. Curiously enough I stated earlier a number of offshoots from the Prostestant and Calvinist faiths, as such the most productive off shoot has been the Methodist movement. As such it has given Britain a great deal to be thankful for with the origin of the industrial skilled trades unions and labour relations, in addition to some fine trade guilds. History tells us this is The protestant work ethic. Had we gone down the road of Catholiscism, we would have had more days off work through various Feast days, Saints days, and Pilgrimages. All religious faith groups have played a predominant role in the start of up of Hospitals via the belief system of patronage and benevolence, you know what I mentioned earlier about good deeds accountable as a measure of ones rights to eternity or sitting at the right side of God.

You don't have to go to church to be a good person. You don't have to go to church to be a Christian or to profess having a faith.

A church is both a building and a body of people, it does not need to represent a religion. You can religiously live a good life and be an atheist. a humanist, or an agnotstic it comes down to respecting that each of us is human.

In relation to more austere and organised religion I have no time for it. Except when performing in large scale choral concerts or recitals, maybe a wedding or christening. I then put up with it. Respectful here of silence being golden. There is much wisdom to be found in silence.

Again why explain the Baptist movement, one reason only so that one is fully aware of what it means for someone to desire becoming an esconced Baptist as opposed to a surface Baptist or lapsed one. In which case some ancient ceremony (Churching I believe it is called) may well be offered to invite someone back into the fold after having strayed off the beaten track of being a pilgrim. The Baptist faith is very family orientated. In which case msgirl son may well be placing his mum in an awkward position. One of choice.

Maureen
Northern angel.

All people feel the need to believe in something greater at some point, it is the human condition.

Original idea of religion was to meet that need and unify people socially. Thats where it became controllign and the politics set in.

Why do you think the communists tried to ban religon? It competes for thought control.

Religion has been abused for centuries by the people who peddle it, so it is not religion we are venting about, it is the people who have used and abused it for millenia. The "organised" religions.

I do not subscribe to a faith, but leaned towards Buddhism for a while as it seemed more pure (ie internal, where it all is) than the other fire and brimstone models. But I always struggled with saying I believed in a God.

Then I read the Kybalian, and now I have no problem in saying I believe in God. The Kybalian (think I spelled it wrong, but hey, there is no hell) is supposedly written more from a philosophy perspective before the other religions got organised, and describes god in a manner that I can believe in (ie a force we cannot understand that created the universe, so is not a human to be present and worry about this spec in the universe, earth and humanity are just a by-product of the cosmic balance He created). ie the Kybalian God is bigger and meaner than all the other gods, which I like.

In spite of its reputed age (5000 years?), remarkably, it is also becoming increasingly consistent with particle physics, and the problem of the Day 1 discontinuity, ie the big bang. Even the physicists are conceding the discontinuity can only be explained by a concept they can only label as God right now, but it goes back to the beginning. He isn't a hairy guy looking over us and doing the boomy voice thing every time Moses goes up a mountain.

Or the guy who gives muslims three options to give to non-believers, the first two are to effectively to be muslims, and the last is to get your head cut off if you dont.

Hello gatubela,

Religion or faith fulfilling a need as you say the 'human condition'.

All ideologies whether they be political or religious, compete for some kind of thought control.

Do Budhists believe in God, do they not believe in hedonism and that at centre of the universe is a condition called happiness? Happiness is thus heaven and is achievable.

Never heard of the Kybalian teachings, and theology is a subject I have read for. Is it a modern religion similar to the Kabala cult Madonna and a few other personalities have taken up?

I'd be careful if it is for it measures your potential according to how much you invest. Literal followers of tithing. A tenth of your belongings and capital.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Hermetic NA. Its old, not a modern LA thing.

Basically provides a number of guidance notes that show up in all the subsequent religions. Balance is one of them, which the Catholics deleted.

I like it as there is no room for "your god, my god". That came later with mans intervention.

Its more philosophical. I have not made the effort to read anything about the Church of Christ Scientist, which I think is the Tom Cruise one. Just assumed that is a Hollywood abomination to a subject that is already way to complicated. Maybe I'm wrong, dunno.

Baptist, Evangelical, *Euconomenical, Methodism, Quakerism, Free Church, Seven day eventists, Church of Scientology, and a few others, are all off shoots from the Protestant movement/Calvinist movement.
Hi Maureen, I think it's a little unfair to throw the Scientologists in with those other denominations. They're pretty off the wall, compared to the others.

To proclaim the existence of God would be to deny the scientific fact of evolution and to dismiss big bang theory and similar theories that account for our existence. I know where my own allegiances lie on that score...sorry God!
No - it's perfectly possible to believe in God and to also believe in evolution and the Big Bang.

[qoute]It is the refuge of the weak-minded or those who are unwilling to take full responsibility for their own actions. [/quote]
Weak minded and responsibility-shy like, say, Mahatma Gandhi? Or Abraham Lincoln? Or Isaac Newton? David Livingstone? (etc, etc, etc)

No - it's perfectly possible to believe in God and to also believe in evolution and the Big Bang.

[qoute]It is the refuge of the weak-minded or those who are unwilling to take full responsibility for their own actions.
Weak minded and responsibility-shy like, say, Mahatma Gandhi? Or Abraham Lincoln? Or Isaac Newton? David Livingstone? (etc, etc, etc)[/QUOTE]

Hello Mikado,

Many wives would say this of there husbands attending football matches on a Saturday instead of cleaning the home, helping with the children, sharing the shopping tasks. That there husbands were out worshipping the football pitch at say Trafford park and not taking responsibility for matters concerned with home.

A bit harsh, maybe unfair. So tell me is football the refuge for those seeking to escape the drudgery of home?

So tell me if you were a Lancashire cotton factory worker, working in sweat shop conditions, would you not find it a thrill and a source of interest to get up on a Sunday, put on your Sunday best and visit your local church?

What about a coal miner, working in the dark for 8 to 10 hour shifts. You surface in the light of day for 6 days of the week. You join a leek growing club, go drinking once a week, go to church twice a week (Not a Mahogany Methodist one) and have a jolly good time. Is this man weak minded?

The welsh miner feels a need to exercise the voice so he joins his local chapel choir. He has a need for something else other than a faith, an occupational hobby.

The famous people you have mentioned in what way were they weak minded, or in what ways did they fail to be responsible people?

Maureen
Northern angel,

Maureen, I think you need to re-read Mik's post.

And with reference to your reply to me, I don't see what your religious upbringing has to do with my question to you. Or why you feel msgirl, with her Baptist grounding needs any explanation of the faith. In other words you've posted nearly 12 inches of words and not addressed the question.

I'm not religious. When I'm dead, I'm dead.

Actually, I'm more than not religious - I'm decidedly anti-religion. It's based on manipulation and bigotry which far outweighs any personal benefits it may bring to individuals.

I object to having to put up with the consequences of passive religion - I bet it's killed more people than tobacco.


Will I go to hell for saying that?

Hello Fee,

Do you believe in ghosts or spirits of any sort good or bad?

Whatever your childhood has been, did religion not form the basis for teaching you a moral code of conduct, one which should stay with you throughout your life?

Do you think that as human beings we could survive without a moral code of conduct?

The main benefit of all religions should be just that, a moral code of conduct. More than that a way of living. Less than these two - than you have your own self made route to dying with your hell on earth, maybe your purgatory on earth during which you live breathe and exercise yourself according to whoever calls your tune.

What do mean by passive religion? I understand people who lapse with there faith who may say they are passive catholics or protestants, but even these people will have remembered and will honour a moral code of conduct. Being uncertain as to what to believe does not make you a killer.

What do you consider the consequences of passive religion? Is it possible that maybe you are speaking here of people who are politically militant and vehement about enacting actions that denote such beliefs? If so these may not be religious people at all.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Do you believe in ghosts or spirits of any sort good or bad? No

Whatever your childhood has been, did religion not form the basis for teaching you a moral code of conduct, one which should stay with you throughout your life? No. You don't need religious beliefs for this.

Do you think that as human beings we could survive without a moral code of conduct? No

The main benefit of all religions should be just that, a moral code of conduct. More than that a way of living. I don't agree that 'religion' is necessary for this. In any case, different religions may have different codes. Less than these two - than you have your own self made route to dying with your hell on earth, maybe your purgatory on earth during which you live breathe and exercise yourself according to whoever calls your tune. If that's what you believe, then so be it.

What do mean by passive religion? I mean the effect that religion has on the world. I'm not religious, but I still have to bear the consequences of any actions carried out in the name of a faith, like a passive smoker is subjected to other people's actions. I understand people who lapse with there faith who may say they are passive catholics or protestants, but even these people will have remembered and will honour a moral code of conduct. Being uncertain as to what to believe does not make you a killer.

What do you consider the consequences of passive religion? Is it possible that maybe you are speaking here of people who are politically militant and vehement about enacting actions that denote such beliefs? If so these may not be religious people at all. Maybe, but a lot of them hide behind religion and use a belief to justify their actions.


Basically, I'm happy with my choices. I am however still intrigued as to why you feel the need to give msgirl information about a religion that presumably she is more familiar with than you. And what bearing your own upbringing has on it.

I put this here b/c I'm sure it's likely to get heated responses but that's not why I started it. I'm curious b/c I'm having a 'situation' with oldest child where he has engulfed himself in church and most everything non-secular. He spends most every weekend over at my SIL and BIL's house and BIL is a Baptist preacher. SIL was raised by hubby's step-dad very, very strictly about dating and just all kinds of things and I see these things being reflected in msboy #1. Hubby goes on special occasions and says he has some ideas of his stand on religion but he's not a believer in organized religion. I was raised Catholic and Baptist and that's a Hell on Earth if there ever is/was one. I've tried to believe and 'feel' the feelings and I just think that I need proof. I don't think there is a fairytale place called 'Heaven' or 'Hell'. Where are they at?? We've been to the moon and we've dug deep into the Earth...no one's seen it. I have found 'religious' people to be...superior acting or stalking you to convince you of the 'facts'. There are a great many who are wonderful people. I hope my children find the faith I couldn't find. I have nothing against people who say they feel what they feel is true belief and all that goes with it. I just can't and I am just here and I will live by the Golden Rule of treating people the way I want to be treated and I will die and I will be buried and that will be the end. What are your personal thoughts and feelings and experiences??

Hello msgirl,

Maybe one day you will find that which you are searching for when you least expect it. Meanwhile you have an excellent golden rule.

You have stated you'd like your children to find the faith you couldn't, maybe they will. But once found like science it cannot answer everything about the world we live in. Once found it does not promise to make the world we live in any better and when there are problems in the world with war and fighting factions there is no wonderful magic wand that can be raised to create peace.

All Wars are caused through man, all acts of injustice are caused through greed and the exercise of man's inhumanity to fellow man.

In relation to your original questions, I suppose I am religious in a way that is not invasive, I am what active and extremely evangelical folk would class as a back slider and of course a sinner. The latter is due to believing that as humans we lack perfection and that is what makes us interesting as people.
I believe my earlier posts have stated some of my own personal thoughts and experiences all be it from a historical perspective.

Here are my last thoughts and experiences on the subject of matters deemed spiritual. Several months after my mother died, a strange woman unknown to me and my family, spoke to me. She told me my 'mother was with me, right behind me', I looked and saw know one. She then went on to tell me of my mother, and I was spooked and frightened to say the least. I got up and got off the bus, I walked the rest of the way to college with tears rolling down my face.I was 17.

During my early teenage years my homelife was traumatic, my parents argued a lot and my mother was always ill. At 13 I did a stupid thing, I decided I wanted out. So I took all of my inhalers thinking that would take my life. For my efforts I was rewarded with the most horrendous headache and serious problems focussing. My father who loved me greatly was upset, my mother was annoyed and the hospital doctors gave me a right rollicking. I deserved it. In fact everyone I knew gave me a right telling off. All except the vicar who became a second father figure. I suppose I felt unloved and unwanted.
The oddest of situations then arose as my musical gifts which hadn't found themselves a niche suddenly found one. I also thought I'd found religion or a faith and had myself baptised at 15. Like your son my new found faith or religion made me happy. So much so, I couldn't stay away.

My father and my mother did worry about the level of my involvement. My father was sarcastic about it, but put it down to going through a phase.

At 20 I was still an active church goer but not as regular, once on a Sunday and that was it. I had some wonderful times with beach parties, holidays, camping, singing at religious conventions in addition an active secular life. The life of a thespian and professional singer to add to the world of work and study. My life was thick and timetabled. Then one day in my very small church, during a time a quiet prayer. A girl began talking in gibberish, foreign tongues. Well this must be a con, I thought why this small church with a congregation of 34. But she went on for a good 2 minutes. She then got up and in a trance like state walked towards a board and began writing on it. Afterwards she went back to her seat in uncontrollable tears. I have still not worked out whether this was real, a con trick, or indeed a spiritual act.

I don't wish to write the words, as I don't wish to minister to you, as you can be white washed by religion in the same way as science does. Suffice it to say it began ' I am the way....

In 1995, I myself had a near death experience and as I have gone into that in a thread somewhere already, I'll leave it at this. My number was obviously not up as I am still here. My father died in October 2000, and although my father was cremated. I can tell you I have seen his double and I followed him into a shop in disbelief.

I do know that for all I consider myself a back slider, and a sinner not of the worst kind mind, I like sex and being a bit naughty and suggestive. When my number is up, I will die happy.

Most of those who have not even the tiniest bit of faith will sadly fear dying, and live the life they have, with the presumption that heaven or hell is a state of mind that you create for yourself here on earth.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Most of those who have not even the tiniest bit of faith will sadly fear dying.

Fact or assumption?

Fact or assumption?

Hello Fee,

I'd like to err towards the side of Fact, on this one.

Have you ever read your star signs printed in a local paper a national or even the educational press?

Maureen
Northern angel.

Hello again Fee,

I think I remember you saying somewhere that you were a realist. As such you will be aware that the origin of some of our laws will have come from the Bible. All writs are variations of the ten commandments plus numerous amendments philosophically written, to many to go into. As such these laws have rendered us unwittingly blind to there origin.

As for different codes of moral conduct evident in alternative faiths to our own, there is a great deal of cultural indifference surrounding an actuality. Muslims don't eat pork because they believe the animal to be an unclean animal. The actuality is that pork in extremely hot countries has no shelf life.
We mustn't confuse cultural differences with religious ones. As far as moral codes are concerned there are many things in common between all religions. It is balance we all fail to understand, ethnic cultures we find difficult to accept, and the history of war and peace is riddled with in accuracies.

I think your passive religious explanation is more to do with militant extremes. Misguided sad and true. We all suffer as a result of such. Also sad and true that some of the worlds leaders use religion to hide behind whilst taking some of the most drastic actions. Hitler in his programmes of ethinic cleansing believed he was doing what his god wanted him to do. George Bush declared war as he believed not just in the threat of the weapons of mass destruction, but because it was the christian thing to do. Horrendous.

I'm pleased to read you are happy with your choices, although the silver printed words under one of your posts suggest a little doubt.

I also believe I have answered both msgirl's questions and yours, with maybe a little too much information. Maybe you have some deep seated thoughts on religious matters which you are in fear or denial about. We are all human, and where we have been and where we are going will always be related to the past.

Maureen
Northern angel

No - it's perfectly possible to believe in God and to also believe in evolution and the Big Bang.



I agree, the two are perfectly consistent. In our current understanding, "something" added energy to nothing and split the nothing into matter and anti-matter, add a few billion years and we all resulted from the cosmic soup.

The Kybalian is probably more aligned with the pagan religions come to think of it, reverence to appreciation of the balance of nature more than anything else (which includes us). It does not preach a moral code. We use the law for that these days.

In the past, the law was based on religion and you can see a lot of religious codes written into the law still. The muslims still believe that state and religious law can be unified aka Shariah law, but religious law cannot work as it corrupts in the same way that any dictatorship does, as the Catholic Church did centuries ago and the Taliban did recently. Animal Farm.

Moral code? I have a strong one, and it will be taught to my children, and part of that moral code is to understand things that are harmful to them, and to develop their will and self-esteem such that they can reject what they choose to. Peer pressure, mind controlling substances, religion. All bad.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. The bible doesn't have a monopoly on that or any other moral belief.

Fear of death? Who equated that with not subscribing to a religious order? Hmm. let me guess, who are the guys preaching we will burn in hell unless we put our pawprint down to their way of thinking?

Hello Fee,

I'd like to err towards the side of Fact, on this one.

Have you ever read your star signs printed in a local paper a national or even the educational press?

Maureen
Northern angel.

So you got your facts from tabloid horoscopes?

Is that the point of the post? Because I can't see any other basis for 'erring on the side of fact.' What does that mean?

the silver printed words under one of your posts suggest a little doubt.

I was being facetious.


Fear of death? Who equated that with not subscribing to a religious order? Hmm. let me guess, who are the guys preaching we will burn in hell unless we put our pawprint down to their way of thinking?

I agree.

Maybe you have some deep seated thoughts on religious matters which you are in fear or denial about.

...and once again, please stop making wild assumptions about me.

So you got your facts from tabloid horoscopes?

Is that the point of the post? Because I can't see any other basis for 'erring on the side of fact.' What does that mean?



I was being facetious.



I agree.

Hello Fee,

Of course my facts do not come from tabloid newspaper horoscopes. No it was not the point of the post.

The reason why I asked such a simple and non offensive question is due to the fact that the thread was about religious beliefs. Do you consider yourself to be religious or something similar to that, was the thread question.

So it is natural it will open out into whether people were Catholic or protestant, Buddhist, Muslim or maybe something a little more interesting. Gatubela seems very happy and content with what choices she has made, and because she has made this choice she might feel that her searching is over.

So I asked whether you read your star sign horoscopes. Merely to attempt to assess whether you were curious about say the future or maybe even the present. Most people who do read these, do so for light hearted non serious reading - something to have a laugh at and note how much rubbish the so called star gazer or astrolger wrote. Maybe even the numerologist has some sought after information to mention in relation to your birthdate and tme, who knows, I'm not going to judge it or decide that it's piffle.

I do know that sometimes people who are searching for answers to problems may resort to non conventional religions, or the occults. The subject of star gazing and charting the movement of the stars and planets is ancient, far older than Christianity and indeed many other old religions.It is known as Zocrastinicism and whilst Zocranistic monks or Soothsayers are not openly known today there religion lives on through astrology, astronomy and numerology.

People searching to find happiness, maybe some meaning for there existence if they do not adhere to a conventional religion, may well be attracted to the ancients and less accessible. Subscribing in some way to reading the stars.

As most of what I write is thought by you to be not relevant, or piffle, or gibberish, I shall withdraw gracefully from this debate, before I become paranoid.

Maureen
Northern angel.

In the words of Lao Tzu

"The best soldier is not soldierly;
The best fighter is not ferocious;
The best conqueror does not take part in war"

So perhaps the most religious are to be found among those who do not consider themselves to be so.

In the words of Lao Tzu

"The best soldier is not soldierly;
The best fighter is not ferocious;
The best conqueror does not take part in war"

So perhaps the most religious are to be found among those who do not consider themselves to be so.


SF I just adore that!! I really love your post!:thumbsup:

I would not worry about your son.
As long as it something that he wants to do, as opposed to something he is pushed into doing, there isn't a problem.
It's very easy to become engulfed in religion, to feel that this (whatever religion) is the answer.
People thrive or suffer alike whether they believe in a god or not, and there is no doubt that 'belief' helps many achieve things that perhaps they could not without it.
I personally was pretty close to commiting myself to the church once, but grew away from it, i did however decide to let my children go to a Catholic school because of their commitment to education.
I have not been disappointed with the results.
Each much choose their own path.
Just out of interest - if your son told you he was gay would it concern you more or less?

The Da Vinci code was made an X rated movie in the Phillippines today.

I quote:

"With the movie opening Thursday in the Roman Catholic-dominated Philippines, the censors gave firm a "strictly for adults" rating, which means only people aged over 18 can view it, because, the censors said, it "needs adult maturity to distinguish fact from fiction and discern good from evil.""

Got me thinking. My attitude with my kids is much the same. Religion in general needs adult maturity to distinguish fact from fiction and discern good from evil. So protect them from it and let them decide as adults.

Own goal!

I would not worry about your son.
As long as it something that he wants to do, as opposed to something he is pushed into doing, there isn't a problem.
It's very easy to become engulfed in religion, to feel that this (whatever religion) is the answer.
People thrive or suffer alike whether they believe in a god or not, and there is no doubt that 'belief' helps many achieve things that perhaps they could not without it.
I personally was pretty close to commiting myself to the church once, but grew away from it, i did however decide to let my children go to a Catholic school because of their commitment to education.
I have not been disappointed with the results.
Each much choose their own path.
Just out of interest - if your son told you he was gay would it concern you more or less?


No, I have a gay brother and hubby has a gay sister. I would be initially concerned, b/c of the hate crimes and disease, etc...but I would accept him, he's my child. I accept his path into religion, it's just that he's started giving up his 'teen-agehood' for religious reasons and that was/is my concern. He may become a preacher or theologian and that's just great, I just don't want him to look back and say, man, I missed prom b/c of church, or have other regrets later. That may be far-fetched on my part b/c very few people live a life without regrets...do they?? I just find it 'strange' to be raised by hubby and myself that he is SO religious. But, they say that preacher's kids are the complete worst as far as things they do...so it may be karma!!:laugh:

Just one thing tells me "RELIGION BAD. AVOID".

The new pope refusedto advocate condom usage as he said it was a temporary issue and Catholicism dealt with long term issues.

HELLO!! So we just ignore the death from AIDS in Africa as it is not something we need to worry about longer term? Somehow it is Gods vengeance for something or another that we can happily just let play out?

Pure evil.

And lets not go into the crusades, current muslim terrorism, and the countless other religious excuses to kill.

Yeah right, my god is good, believe me, or you die.

Well, we met with BIL and SIL and hashed a lot of things out and I feel truly relieved. I thought I was going to be in for a 'preachin' session' from SIL especially b/c of my lack of participation in church, but I explained my views up front and they were totally respected, although I know they wish they were different and stated so, in a very respectful way. They assured me that they were not trying to 'cult' msboy#1 and I can see that he feels more assimilated to them b/c they share his 'beliefs' and they do a lot of youth oriented things. In the the same token, they were very upset at his attitude of not trying to come to a 'happy medium and respect hubby and myself, and get along better with msboy #2, and they let him know that in a big way. That was another load off. Hubby bailed and if I'm suddenly a widow, ask no questions, hear no lies. I also brought up thier lack of partitapation with msboy #2 and how I wanted both boys to have exposure to all of thier family and them not just 'treat' msboy #1. Exposure to MY family may be hazardous to thier health. So, for now, I will see how msboy #1's behavior is over the next few weeks and go from there. Just an update to all of you who so sweetly contributed and consoled and offered wonderful advice. xo Msgirl:wub:

Its all what we choose to believe at the end of the day.

My only caveat is to have a good feel for why we believe what we do; to understand where our beliefs originated.

Adherence to any named faith is locational, and the adherence is taught, not inherited.

Understand the teachers and their motives.

I have a faith...I am a Christian...I attend church regularly and believe in God and the father, son and holy spirit. I pray regulalrly and have witnessed answers to prayer. Of course my faith runs deeper than that but I do not conform to a strict doctrine so therefore would not consider myself religious.

I just don't 'feel' what everyone says they feel. I don't/can't imagine a 'diety' that we are supposed to abide to, who allows suffering and calamity and we are supposed to accept this as 'grace' and 'a lesson' and 'a message'. I can't accept Heaven and Hell, I view them as 'fairytale' places. I can't believe, as we have over here, that one religion believes they are the ONLY ones going to Heaven and the rest are 'doomed' unless they join. It's all a 'club competition' and I don't want any part of the club part. I am a nice, kind, fair, decent,person who lives by the Golden Rule and that's enough for me. I'm satisfied with me.:)

I have a faith...I am a Christian...I attend church regularly and believe in God and the father, son and holy spirit. I pray regulalrly and have witnessed answers to prayer. Of course my faith runs deeper than that but I do not conform to a strict doctrine so therefore would not consider myself religious.

Thats pretty interesting! To differentiate faith from religion. I agree 100%. Faith is belief in something, religion is a doctrine.

Excellent point.

I'm a little like Coastie. I don't believe myself religious as I don't follow any particular doctrine, but I think I do believe in God. I do pray from time to time but mainly I think that by living as good a life as possible, then you are living "Gods" way, if such an entity exists.

However, although I don't follow any particular religious doctrine myself, I don't agree with the viewpoint that those who do are weak or unfulfilled. I just think that such people are trying to maintain a relationship with God, and the religion of their choice or upbringing is simply the vehicle by which they do so. I hope no-one is offended by this, but I find it a little arrogant of the "non-religious" to suggest that followers of a religious faith are somehow weaker or less fulfilled than those who don't. Not following a religious doctrine does not make anyone "stronger" or "better" than those who do, just different from them.

I believe everyone has the choice to choose what they want and would NEVER mock or ridicule anyone's faith or beliefs. I have my beliefs and others have there's. Why we can't find a mutual ground of "OK, you believe...you don't...you're unsure...you express your beliefs this way...ect." and go on with life is beyond me. Live and let live. We are all different and thus think and believe differently. You can't change an orange into an apple...you just accept that it's an orange and go on with your life.:smartie:

Like you MissG, even though my faith is strong and I do attend church regularly, have been baptised, because I wanted to be, and I pray and read my bible regularly, I still believe that others should choose their own walk in life and not be ridiculed because of it.

the only time I feel that any faith should be curbed is when it involves the harming of others or oneself...fanatical groups/cults that kind of thing.

I know that I can walk away from my fellow church members and faith anytime I like and I will not be strong armed back in. Some of my friends and fellow christians will be upset but it is understood that we all attend church and worship there and through our daily walk because we chose to honor God that way not because it is what is expected of us and what we MUST do.

This is where I feel the line is drawn between religion and faith more than anything. If I were a Nun, say, I would, as part of my service to God, perform daily routine tasks from when I pray to what I wear etc. This to me is religion...following a particular faith in a way that has strict guidelines and rituals a doctrine which need to be adeared to. I however am free to pray, read my bible, wear what I like etc. and chose to attend church and follow the teachings of Jesus in pretty much my own way. I respect the teachings simply because I want to honor God by doing so however I also know that if I stray God still loves me and I am forgiven and free because I have accepted him into my life and believ in him.

I respect those that follow their faith in a much more religious way as I know I would really struggle if I ever had to! :angel_not

nah - religion pis*es me off.:bored:

nah - religion pis*es me off.:bored:

Why? :mellow:

Why? :mellow:
Ignorance, judging by his earlier post.

Since I've popped back (briefly?) I may as well dive into a religion thread eh? My fave. :) I don't want to launch into a Blinky diatribe, but perhaps just one or two comments...

I don't think there is a fairytale place called 'Heaven' or 'Hell'. Where are they at??
Modern cosmologists, astronomers and physicist now commonly accept that there are more than the four dimensions we encounter (space and time). E.g. Stephen Hawking believes that we can only understand the universe as being part of a greater dimensional system. I've read about theories that there are anything up to 12 different dimensions in total. In fact if what orthodox Christianity believe about God being omnipresent is true, he must necessarily exist in a dimension beyond ours. So to this extent the Bible and Science would appear to have some common ground.

Side note: the use of the word "Hell" in the Bible is considered by modern scholars to be a poor translation, borrowing from a Greek concept of the afterlife. In fact, the Bible does not have clear support for a place of eternal torment for all bad people, and certainly not one presided over by a dude with horns, pitchfork and forked tail.

Even if you are a believer in any God, I don't think it's necessary to gather together with lots of other believers in one place once a week.
True, but it can be beneficial. Christianity includes teaching that the Church is the "Bride of Christ" - in a fairly mystical sense. The Church being a "body" of diverse people with at least one thing in common.

That's the theory, but people tend to have too many petty divisions and squabbles to make such a large all-encompassing concept work. :)

seriously though I do wonder at those people who get married in a church and have their children christened but don't believe in God. what do they believe in and why do they feel the need to have these ceremonies carried out "under the eye of god"?
Insurance.

I deplore anyone who uses guilt and the threat of eternal damnation as a method of controlling behaviour
Totally agree.

I'm decidedly anti-religion. It's based on manipulation and bigotry which far outweighs any personal benefits it may bring to individuals."Religion" is based on manipulation, etc? All Religion? Some religions? "Based"?

People manipulate and are bigoted. An inanimate concept "religion" cannot manipulate or be bigoted.

Which religion in particular is based on manipulation and bigotry? How can one demonstrate this? Or is it just an easy peg (for Daily Mail readers ;) ) to hang an objection to religion on?

Truthfully, there's a bit more to it than that, isn't there.

To proclaim the existence of God would be to deny the scientific fact of evolution
Dear oh dear, did some really just proclaim evolution as a "scientific fact"?! Can anyone really claim to be scientific and yet be dishonest about the fact that the biggest question of science is how to interpret the evidence?

It is the refuge of the weak-minded
...and other useful cliches. You haven't said "it's a crutch" yet. Or "how can there be a God when there's so much suffering in the world".

All kind of a posteriori, don't you think?

Either there is a God, or there isn't.

Even if there was a God i think he'd be laughing his ass off at all these sad desperate souls who are devoting all their precious time to worshipping in his name.
Thanks for that illuminating contribution....

I need proof.
Ah, that old chestnut.

Pop outside. Take a look around. Look at the trees, animals, flowers, etc. Look up and the dazzling array of stars (assuming it's night and you don't suffer from light pollution). There you go. Proof of God's existence.

What's that? You say you don't accept that as proof? What would you accept as proof then? Oh - if God came down to show us what he was like, and do miracles etc.? Would that help?

Ah. Slight problem.

So as I said before - it's not a question of evidence or proof - it's a question of how you interpret the evidence. This reminds me of the very interesting discussion we had (prompted by SF) about the existence of the colour red. :)

Original idea of religion was to meet that need and unify people socially.
A similar point to Fee's: who had this "original idea"? Which religion are we talking about here?

I have not made the effort to read anything about the Church of Christ Scientist, which I think is the Tom Cruise one.
Confusingly, the Christian Scientists and the Scientologists are two completely different groups. The latter denies God's existence.

People manipulate and are bigoted. An inanimate concept "religion" cannot manipulate or be bigoted.

Yes, people do, and are, and my belief is that any form of religion is an easy peg on which to hang excuses for so doing and so being.

It's a belief I've formed over the years from observations and reading.

And one which I might expand on if I hadn't had that extra glass of wine at lunchtime :huh:

my belief is that any form of religion is an easy peg on which to hang excuses for so doing and so being.
Well that's a big difference, isn't it? Power corrupts. Humans are corruptible. Human + the perceived power of a position of status within a religious organisation = potential for abuse.

There's a baby in amongst all that bathwater, remember.

Humans are corruptible. Human + the perceived power of a position of status within a religious organisation = potential for abuse.

And the concept of religion was dreamt up as a means of control!

Brilliant wheeze though. Maybe I should stick with Haydon's Second Life site and start a new faith :laugh:

And the concept of religion was dreamt up as a means of control!
That's not the first time this has been said in this thread (or something to this effect). Can you step back a moment and analyse that rather odd assertion?

Dreamt up? By whom? Do you really think that was the prime motive? How can you assert this with such boldness? Based on what evidence?

Come come Fifi, you know it wouldn't be fair of me just to let it go. ;)

Why do you think it's an odd assertion Blink?

I think it's perfectly feasible that the ruling classes would come up with a way to keep the masses in order - and what better than taking a popular concept and organising it to suit; developing rules to be followed and ruling over it with the promises and threats of either eternal salvation or damnation.

It's a conclusion I've drawn from experience, reading and observation - I don't know whether it's right or wrong - just as you don't know whether your belief is.

I'd say my atheism is as profound as your Christianity; as informed as yours is and, until either Armageddon or Arma-nothing, just as valid.

Your turn :w00t:

Why do you think it's an odd assertion Blink?
Because you are saying (1) that some person or persons dreamt up religion (clever them eh?!), and (2) they did so in order to control people. Pretty sophisticated thinking, that, from these pre-modern people. Genius, in fact.

Surely the reading and experience you mention could reasonably lead you to the far easier to substantiate conclusion that people hijacked some (or all?) religion for their own (illegitimate?) purposes?

I think it's perfectly feasible that the ruling classes
So you think the term "ruling classes" can appropriately be applied (universally) to the Stone Age, for example? Because religion(s) can certainly be traced back that far, in some form or other.

I don't know whether it's right or wrong - just as you don't know whether your belief is.
On the contrary, I do know whether my belief is right or wrong. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, naturally... :w00t:

I'd say my atheism is as profound as your Christianity; as informed as yours is and, until either Armageddon or Arma-nothing, just as valid.
Except that the evidence for atheism is logically and necessarily more limited than any theistic belief system. It is easier to reason from the evidence to the existence of something than to the non-existence of something. There are plenty of different proof systems that there is a God (of some form). From those that I've read, the best the atheistic proofs of "non-God" can do is demonstrate that there probably isn't a God. Which seems to make agnosticism a more logically defensible position for self-confessed atheists.

Sorry!

Except that the evidence for atheism is logically and necessarily more limited than any theistic belief system. It is easier to reason from the evidence to the existence of something than to the non-existence of something. There are plenty of different proof systems that there is a God (of some form). From those that I've read, the best the atheistic proofs of "non-God" can do is demonstrate that there probably isn't a God. Which seems to make agnosticism a more logically defensible position for self-confessed atheists.

Are you assuming because I'm an atheist that I haven't delved into t'other side? :ohmy: I do see your point about agnosticism, at at one time, I would have described myself as such. But then I thought what's the point, because if it turned out there was a god of some description, it'd be a bit cowardly to accept it, especially as whatever it is, if it is, has made a real ham-fisted go of it.

eg - I have no respect for, say, the BNP. I'm not going to become a supporter if they suddenly came to power, just because they've proven themselves as capable.

Because you are saying (1) that some person or persons dreamt up religion (clever them eh?!), and (2) they did so in order to control people. Pretty sophisticated thinking, that, from these pre-modern people. Genius, in fact. Not sophisticated at all. Hierarchies existed in the most primitive societies, and hierarchies tend to protect the status quo. Nothing better than a bogey man to keep order, and let's throw in a good guy too. They can bestow tributes on him - should be some good pickings to be had there.

Surely the reading and experience you mention could reasonably lead you to the far easier to substantiate conclusion that people hijacked some (or all?) religion for their own (illegitimate?) purposes?

I said they had taken a popular concept. I'm not denying that people throughout time have had some sort of belief system - what I don't accept is that these systems are based on anymore than the exploitation or, in some cases, self-promotion of a contemporary cult figure/con-man/savant for political means.

Anyhow, Blintzie, we aint going to ever agree on this, are we?

If you look at what might be called religion among less developed tribes today, mightn't that give a clue to the origins of religion in the West?

I'm thinking here of forest tribes whose lifestyle today might roughly equate to that of stone age man.

From what I can see, these people have an innate religious sense which helps them deal with all the unpredictable forces of nature that surround them.

They are prfoundly at one with nature, and rely on their 'god/s' to guide them and show them the way.

No sign of there being a mastermind in the tribe using it to control the rest.

Anyhow, Blintzie, we aint going to ever agree on this, are we?
Am I making you uncomfortable?

Actually, I think this is quite productive; we may not reach agreement, but I think we can certainly reach a better understanding. :)

Are you assuming because I'm an atheist that I haven't delved into t'other side?
No.

I do see your point about agnosticism, at at one time, I would have described myself as such. But then I thought what's the point, because if it turned out there was a god of some description, it'd be a bit cowardly to accept it, especially as whatever it is, if it is, has made a real ham-fisted go of it.
You're making my head spin.

One of your reasons for being an atheist is that if there is a God, you couldn't "accept" it?

Or that God appears in your judgment to have made a mess, therefore he doesn't exist?

Or that there might be a God, but you don't like the kind of God he appears to be, therefore he doesn't exist?

If your quote accurately represents what you feel on the subject (and I know that written communication can be defective in that respect) then you have just indicated that you are (still) an agnostic - or possibly even a theist. There's a big difference between asserting there is no God and asserting that there may be a God, but you don't like him.

eg - I have no respect for, say, the BNP. I'm not going to become a supporter if they suddenly came to power, just because they've proven themselves as capable.
Again, there's a big difference between refusing to support the BNP, and denying that they exist at all.

Not sophisticated at all. Hierarchies existed in the most primitive societies,
To the extent that the guy with the biggest club was in charge, possibly, but I wouldn't impute him with the ability to control those around him by introducing the concept of religion.

I think that SF is closer to the truth. Not that it is a hugely important point, but from what we can see, it is more likely that a religion comes first and it is subsequently twisted/abused. That said, in sophisticated societies there are examples of people developing their own religion and using that to control others - e.g. Sun Myung Moon (Unitarian Church) or David Koresh, both of whom basically managed to convince a few people that they were Jesus returned.

Note that in both cases, they relied upon a pre-existent religion.

what I don't accept is that these systems are based on anymore than the exploitation
I'm afraid that the facts contradict that, in many (but not all) cases.

My belief system is based on a belief that a creator made me and wants to have a positive relationship with me (and everyone else). That is its basis. Everything flows from that. He also wants me to treat others in a way that reflects the positive relationship he wants with them. In other words, so far as it is possible, live at peace with all people, and make a positive difference where I can. Who am I exploiting?

If you look at what might be called religion among less developed tribes today, mightn't that give a clue to the origins of religion in the West?

I'm thinking here of forest tribes whose lifestyle today might roughly equate to that of stone age man.
Yup, good point.

From what I can see, these people have an innate religious sense which helps them deal with all the unpredictable forces of nature that surround them.

They are prfoundly at one with nature, and rely on their 'god/s' to guide them and show them the way.

No sign of there being a mastermind in the tribe using it to control the rest.
How do you know that? Has someone documented that forest tribes absolutely do not use religious beliefs as any kind of control mechanism?

I'm thinking of parts of Africa - granted not necessarily exactly the same as the stone-age type forest tribes I think you're thinking of - where people are frequently beaten or killed on suspicion of being witches. In that situation it's obvious that someone with influence could manipulate religious belief as a way of controlling people and weeding out non-conformists. If that kind of thing can happen in documented Africa then why not in more primitive societies?

I think that it's facile to say that religion was first developed as a means of control. But on the other hand, since religion necessarily requires some kind of organisation, and organisation requires some kind of rules and some kind of organiser, the existence of religion necessarily makes it open for abuse. Again - power corrupting, and suchlike.

Has someone documented that forest tribes absolutely do not use religious beliefs as any kind of control mechanism?

No idea Mik. And of course anything can be used as an attempted means of control in the wrong hands.

since religion necessarily requires some kind of organisation, and organisation requires some kind of rules and some kind of organiser

I think this depends on how you define religion. Organised religion - yes I'd agree, but I think there are other kinds, like religious awareness that doesn't have its roots in any man made organisation.

I think this depends on how you define religion. Organised religion - yes I'd agree, but I think there are other kinds, like religious awareness that doesn't have its roots in any man made organisation.
Not sure what you mean SF?

By "organisation" I don't just mean complicated liturgies and hierarchies, but even such basic things as agreeing on a name for the God and some basic do's and don't's. I'm not sure what "religious awareness" is if without any kind of structure to one's faith. Is "religious awareness" the same as or different to "religion"?

Am I making you uncomfortable?

Oh God no :wink2: I could hypothesise for hours and bore everyone rigid with my views. I get better after a good meal and a few bottles too!



My belief system is based on a belief that a creator made me and wants to have a positive relationship with me (and everyone else). That is its basis. Everything flows from that. He also wants me to treat others in a way that reflects the positive relationship he wants with them. In other words, so far as it is possible, live at peace with all people, and make a positive difference where I can. Who am I exploiting?

Doug. You're only keeping him on cos you need him. :p

Is "religious awareness" the same as or different to "religion"?

I don't know. I think I actually said "organised religion" which I meant in the way most people would understand it - Christianity, Catholicism, Islam, Buddhism ... etc.

Are you saying that an individual can't have some kind of spiritual (religious)experience without these?

Please don't ask me to define what I mean by spiritual!

Doug. You're only keeping him on cos you need him. :p
I know this is in jest, but I am not Doug's employer. Besides, it's not like he's doing the job for free. ;)

but I am not Doug's employer.

:unsure: Didn't Cain say something similar?

Are you attempting to argue both sides of this discussion simultaneously? :D

Have at it!

Wouldn't be the first time :bag:

No. I was just showing off.

I have a bible you know. It's bound in blue leather and I used to keep my Supremes-with-Diana Ross-but-before-they-were-really-famous autograph in it. But my brother nicked that, so it's just my Blue Peter badge letter from Biddy Baxter now :smartie:

I love Blink to pieces, but I cannot 'discuss' religion with him as he makes me all sweaty and nervous. So continue on Fee...for the 'team'!http://www.invision.smileyville.net/smilies/girl (22).gif

I love Blink to pieces... he makes me all sweaty
:blink:

But seriously, I'm sorry if I come across too strong. :(

No. I was just showing off.
I figured it wasn't really worth ripping to shreds... ;)

I have a bible you know.
Okay...

Oh Blink, you don't come accross too strong...I said that in jest. I have a BIL that's a preacher and a really fine fellow. We talk oodles and oodles about religion and my lack of beliefs and he's really nice about it and very professorly about my queries and remarks...I just have my thoughts and feelings and others have theirs. We can still hang together...:sun:

Okay, but will you promise to take a shower first?

:wink_kiss

Honey child, I take 2 showers per day...I smell like a bar of soap all the time!!:laugh:

interesting thread to read and now comment upon. i spent some time in the summer working with a community of sikhs. not my home group. but it was fun to learn, explore and not be hot about religion or camps or beliefs or whatever. The food was great! I also spent some time with a muslim group and the same thing applied. one thing i realise is, i like people who are religious. committed to something. i also know that religion has given people reasons to behave very badly. so i am footloose and fancy free but am not so stupid to think, one day i just appeared on this land. i trust that there is more. I am counting on it.
I am going to several baptisms and weddings this year (hopefully no funerals) that are central to religious life. Could we live without this rite of passage?

Yes, I think we probably could.

And you're right, you didn't just appear on this land!

It took billions of years of evolution and quite alot of physics.

Yes, I think we probably could.

And you're right, you didn't just appear on this land!

It took billions of years of evolution and quite alot of physics.


Awww you've spoilt everything now.

Next you'll be telling me that Santa doesn't exist

spoilsport

so i am footloose and fancy free but am not so stupid to think, one day i just appeared on this land. i trust that there is more. I am counting on it.



I bet your Ma would have plenty to say about how you appeared!!!! We come into the world as a traumatic event (for mum - that big head forcing its way out of a teeeeeny tiny hole:wacko: ...) and we leave the world in traumatic surroundings (it might not be so traumatic for the one who has died, but it is very traumatic for those left behind...)

I am going to several baptisms and weddings this year (hopefully no funerals) that are central to religious life. Could we live without this rite of passage?

As in baptisms and weddings you mean? Yes we probably could as my learned friend Groucho points out, but on the other hand I'm not sure that we (as a species, a culture) would want to (live without them that is).

Both of them, rites of passage as you said, seem to represent something that the community by and large wants and maybe needs to see repeated over and over. Quite what they stand for at their most fundamental level I am not sure of, but seeing as they seem to have their origins back in the 'mists of time' and are also common across most cultures, they would seem to be important and have significance as far as the human species is concerned.

As a practising Anglican (high church) I attend every week and feel that it meets a lot of my personal spiritual needs. I'm not a fisher-of-men though and would never try to persuade anyone else to follow my kind of faith.

I think most of the troubles in this world are caused by people trying to enforce their own beliefs on others.
Trying to live by what Jesus said in his sermon on the mount is incredibly difficult because it takes monumental effort to be good and very little effort to be sinful.

Although I'm Anglican, I think an unbeatable set of daily rules to attempt to live by, with much less effort (I'm not saying don't make an effort to emulate Jesus, just don't give up and go off the rails completely when you realise how hard it is!) are those of John Wesley (himself an Anglican but also the founder of Methodism):

Do all the good you can

In all the ways you can

In all the places you can

At all the times you can

By all the means you can

To all the people you can

As long as ever you can

[INDENT][COLOR=Indigo]snip

Amen to that

##snip## i also know that religion has given people reasons to behave very badly. ##snip##

No it has not. What you mean is that people have behaved badly and then interpretated religious ideas to exonerate their behavoir.

Their is a big difference.

As a practising Anglican (high church) I attend every week and feel that it meets a lot of my personal spiritual needs. I'm not a fisher-of-men though and would never try to persuade anyone else to follow my kind of faith.

I think most of the troubles in this world are caused by people trying to enforce their own beliefs on others.
Trying to live by what Jesus said in his sermon on the mount is incredibly difficult because it takes monumental effort to be good and very little effort to be sinful.

Although I'm Anglican, I think an unbeatable set of daily rules to attempt to live by, with much less effort (I'm not saying don't make an effort to emulate Jesus, just don't give up and go off the rails completely when you realise how hard it is!) are those of John Wesley (himself an Anglican but also the founder of Methodism):

Do all the good you can

In all the ways you can

In all the places you can

At all the times you can

By all the means you can

To all the people you can

As long as ever you can






I've found myself attending our local United Methodist Church...I've been drawn to the openess of the people and the laid back style of worship. And the doors didn't fly off when I entered...:pimp:

We come into the world as a traumatic event (for mum - that big head forcing its way out of a teeeeeny tiny hole:wacko: ...)

speak for your own hole love! mine is a great big gaping ... actually I'll stop there cos I don't think I'm doing myself any favours here!!! :blush: :laugh: