Ok, we have all done it. gone out on a Sunday night had one to many and taken a day off to recover from an almighty hangover.

Also, we have taken a day off just because we fancied it, have we not?
Hopefully the occassions we have been guilty of this are few and far between.

But there are some people who take time off for every time they sneeze of a morning, there are those who deliberately book all there medical appointments in working time just to get time off. Some take time off on returning from a holiday twice or thrice every year. Some employees go so far as to take time off for excessively long periods of recovery from surgery.

All in all this costs employers a fortune, especially if you are one of the lucky ones for whom pay is guaranteed on a sliding scale. I am not referring to sick pay here. But actually wages. Full pay for six months, half pay for the remaining six months or similar.

You work for the DHSS, the NHS, the POLICE, the FIRE BRIGADE, you are a civil servant for the PENSIONS OFFICE, the CPS, the LOCAL COUNCIL or in EDUCATION.

In the private sector you would not get away with this, all this time off that is being paid for is an abuse of your employers generosity.

In reality all tax payers past and present is funding all your time off, as these are public bodies financed by taxation.

As an individual that has always taken pride in my work and having worked across from private sector to public. I think there is ample cause for a review of employment legislation in relation to Sickness payments and holiday payments. I would also like to see a balancing out of the benefits between both public and private sector employees. A fairer deal.

What has raised this issue for me, is that I have heard recently of an individual in the health service who seems to take too much time off very regularly for the sake of it, the rest of the staff bust a gut to carry on working, even turning in when ill. Also attending numerous meaningless and unpaid meetings, as some love to hear there own voices. I am looking at the equivalent of say two months off in a year. Another individual has had 8 months off to recover from back surgery, and is currently engaged in taking her holiday time at the end of the year she will have worked the equivalent of a month and received all her full time salary for 10 months of that year plus 2 months at 50% of her salary.

My cousins wife stands a strong chance of her grading falling as the nature of her job is changing, I recently advised her to speak with her union rep. She is tentative about it being only few years from retirement. My concern here is that if she doesn't speak up to protect her grading whoever comes in after her, may well be offered the lower grade. The changing nature of her working environment is not within her control, as such she should not be penalised for that. It is not her fault either that some administrator is following a managerial remit to hold everyone accountable for the pay scales they are on.

Her union rep would be able to advise on the legalities of this situation after all, if the nature of the job is changing an employer is reponsible for ensuring that her employment contract is reviewed to either a) allow for such flexibility or maybe she needs advice on the 27 years of service to the health service with regards to possible redundancy payments. This appears to be a common practice with the near retirement age workers in the health service, in the private sector your employer would be attending a tribunial to ascertain the value of a redundancy payment in view of the 'Assisted enforcement of taking your leave.'

So there it is my gripe for the week.

What do you think?

Maureen
Northern angel.:ranting: :ranting:

Ok, we have all done it. gone out on a Sunday night had one to many and taken a day off to recover from an almighty hangover.

Actually, I haven't. I'll read the rest of your post later if that's ok.

There are people who work for my husband's company who only work the minimum number of hours and who use all of their statutory sick entitlement and treat it as extra holiday.

One of these culprits is a neighbour of ours (see gawdy Christmas lights photo if you can be bothered to look) and she takes time off when the kids are "ill" (I actually think she's got Munchausen's(sp) disease), when the kids are 13 and 16 and their grandparents live next door!

Don't get me started Mo.

in the private sector your employer would be attending a tribunial to ascertain the value of a redundancy payment in view of the 'Assisted enforcement of taking your leave.'


Why would they be attending a tribunal? And what does statutory leave have to do with it?

As for the rest of it, I've written shorter notes for tribunal hearings :wacko:

I've had 4 days sick in nine and a half years...two for a stomache flu that was doing the rounds and two for an ear infection...I copuldn't stand up without falling over!

I've never gone sick unless I was sick...genuinely...even through school...

It pees me off that there are some people where I work who abuse the system no end leading to others of us having to cover vacancies on watches that are running short handed at some of the busiest times.

The civil service allows a week of self certified sickness...yes a week off and you don't need a note from the doctor...this IMHO is soooo wrong! Anything longer than three days and I say a sick note should be provided as by then you should have pretty much recovered from the worst of the flu or any regularly occuring illness.

As it stands certain people are often off a week at a time claiming sickness and because of equal ops and a diversity crud their sickness record isn't allowed to be taken into account when promotion is on offer! Basically there is no real incentive not to abuse the system other than each individuals own morale standing...and that starts to wear thin when so many take the pee! :angry:

and because of equal ops and a diversity crud their sickness record isn't allowed to be taken into account when promotion is on offer!

Coastie, if that's the case, then it's just poor management. Unless they are registered disabled in which case certain other criteria should be taken into account.

Ok, we have all done it. gone out on a Sunday night had one to many and taken a day off to recover from an almighty hangover.

Also, we have taken a day off just because we fancied it, have we not?



Sorry - I haven't time to read your whole post - but the start jumped at me.

I have never taken time off to recover from a hangover - nor have I taken a day off because I fancied it.

I really find sweeping generalisations like this quite offensive - please remember that not everybody treats their career/job in such a cavalier manner.

Thank you.

Well said Rob.

I have also never just taken a day off because I fancied it or with a hangover. I have fallen into work and been sent home ill, but have always been of the mind that it is better to 'give it a go' unless I am so sick I can't get out of bed, and this is what I am trying to instil in my boys.

Coastie, if that's the case, then it's just poor management. Unless they are registered disabled in which case certain other criteria should be taken into account.

Well...we do call our Human Resources...Human Remains! :wink2:

Apart from agreeing with the others about the throwing a sickie assumptions, I have now waded through the several confusing strands of argument here. (Television's rubbish tonight )


But there are some people who take time off for every time they sneeze of a morning, there are those who deliberately book all there medical appointments in working time just to get time off. Some take time off on returning from a holiday twice or thrice every year. Some employees go so far as to take time off for excessively long periods of recovery from surgery. In which case, they should be dealt with under an absence management policy leading, if necessary, to disciplinary action and possible dismissal.

All in all this costs employers a fortune, especially if you are one of the lucky ones for whom pay is guaranteed on a sliding scale. I am not referring to sick pay here. But actually wages. No, Mo. You are talking about sick pay - occupational as opposed to statutory.

You work for the DHSS, the NHS, the POLICE, the FIRE BRIGADE, you are a civil servant for the PENSIONS OFFICE, the CPS, the LOCAL COUNCIL or in EDUCATION. I think we all know what the public sector consists of.

In the private sector you would not get away with this, all this time off that is being paid for is an abuse of your employers generosity. 1. In some badly managed organisations you might get away with it, if they offered similar occupatonal schemes. 2. There is too wide a range of occupational schemes to make this type of generalisation; in fact there is no legal requirement to pay anything other than the statutory rate.

I would also like to see a balancing out of the benefits between both public and private sector employees. A fairer deal. And who will bear the additional cost in the private sector that will result from this balancing out? (Please don't churn out the old chestnut about huge profits made by corporates - there's a huge SME sector as well who would be crippled by such a proposal.)

What has raised this issue for me, is that I have heard recently of an individual in the health service who seems to take too much time off very regularly for the sake of it, the rest of the staff bust a gut to carry on working, even turning in when ill. Also attending numerous meaningless and unpaid meetings, as some love to hear there own voices. What relevance does attending meetings have to whatever point you are trying to make?

My cousins wife stands a strong chance of her grading falling as the nature of her job is changing... My concern here is that if she doesn't speak up to protect her grading whoever comes in after her, may well be offered the lower grade. The changing nature of her working environment is not within her control... So, on the one hand you are berating the public sector for wasting tax payers' money on excessive sick pay, yet now you are advocating maintaining grade levels that may no longer be appropriate?

Her union rep would be able to advise on the legalities of this situation Quite. She'd be better served taking her advice from that source.

What do you think? I think checking facts first is usually a good idea

Well...we do call our Human Resources...Human Remains! :wink2:

They may well be, but it should be the manager's responsibility to, well, manage.

:)

oh my lord! I'm really poorly at the moment :ill: and I don't intend going into work tomorrow. i work for the public sector and dont' have a hangover ... am I a bad person?!

I have taken days off sick when I could have gone in, but I was unwell, although in retrospect I could have gone in if I'd really wanted to I suppose. But i've never taken a day sick if I was perfectly OK.

A friend of mine actually took two weeks of sick and went to America on holiday!!! I was absolutely shocked at the decit of it. But the "groundwork" she did before hand was hilarious - coming into work with no make up on, sniffing and puffy eyed etc etc!!!

In my youth when hangovers were frequent I was a temp and it was up to me whether I worked or not, if I didn't I didn't get paid whatever the reason.

I have to say one thing I cannot stand is martyrs who come in even when they are ill and then expect some kind of medal or reward for it. Get real you aint that indespensable give yourself a break!

My friend's mother-in-law got an award of a £500 holiday voucher cos on her retirement she hadn't taken a single day off sick - not that she was never sick just that she never took a day off for it!! Quite frankly - and this may cause some of you goody goodies to reach for the smelling salts - I'd rather have had the sick days than £500 after twenty five years!!

Actually, I haven't. I'll read the rest of your post later if that's ok.

There are people who work for my husband's company who only work the minimum number of hours and who use all of their statutory sick entitlement and treat it as extra holiday.

One of these culprits is a neighbour of ours (see gawdy Christmas lights photo if you can be bothered to look) and she takes time off when the kids are "ill" (I actually think she's got Munchausen's(sp) disease), when the kids are 13 and 16 and their grandparents live next door!

Don't get me started Mo.

Hello Patsy,

What you've just described has been happening in further education. But I also know of some private sector workers who do the same.

In education some full time lecturers have a bone of contention over pay issues. 36K is not enough for them. I'm part time this shouldn't concern me, but I do feel its wrong not mark exam papers or hold up exam boards once exams have been sat. This should be a board week but the full timers are having a number disputes.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Why would they be attending a tribunal? And what does statutory leave have to do with it?

As for the rest of it, I've written shorter notes for tribunal hearings :wacko:


Hello Fee,

The thing is it is not my cousins wife's fault that the nature of her job is changing, the NHS across the board apparently have been informed that they must all prove that they are worthy of the grades they have as nurses, at the same time they must meet targets.

The problem is these issues are being brought to the forefront by people who have never been part of the nursing profession they are administrators. It would be a bit like me going in to access a situation and to come up with a programme of proposals without any understanding of how this would affect people.

The fact that her job is changing and there is additional pressure being placed on staff makes her feel that she should take early retirement. The NHS do not normally make redundancies but as she has served 27 years, I really think she should have words with her union rep. In the private sector employment legislation exists which states what your redundancy entitlements would be by law. I think her job and position is being rendered untenable, which is daft as parents expect a nursing facility with staff.

More importantly though there is no definitive possibility that the job itself may revert back to being as complete. It all depends on the intake of special needs cases in these schools. The lists of do's and don'ts beggars belief, from nursing staff when unqualified persons can now be expected to fulfil a nursing need whenever one arises. Absolutely crazy.

Maureen
Northern angel.

I apologise Rob and Buzz, you are right to point it out that not everyone is so cavalier about taking time off.

I learnt very quickly it was better to go into work feeling ill, as on my very first day off, with yes the hangover in my days of being young and stupid - of course I thought I'd get away with it. But it resulted in a policeman at my door. Who was very pleasant about it, but told me I was better turning in to do my shift.

Apologies to all you extremely hard workers, for being flippant.

Maureen
Northern angel.

The NHS do not normally make redundancies What? There are redundancies all over the place!

In the private sector employment legislation exists which states what your redundancy entitlements would be by law. The law applies to workers in both public and private sectors, as does stautory redundancy pay. But an employee cannot demand redundancy if their job has not been put at risk by the employer.

If you're advising this relative otherwise, you are doing her a disservice.

What? There are redundancies all over the place!

The law applies to workers in both public and private sectors, as does stautory redundancy pay. But an employee cannot demand redundancy if their job has not been put at risk by the employer.

If you're advising this relative otherwise, you are doing her a disservice.

Sorry Fee,

I had meant that the NHS do not normally make redundancy payments instead circumstances becomes so untenable staff want to move on, change there contracts of work or they leave of there own accord. But yes vast numbers have recently been reported as having been made redundant.

At present of all the nurses I know they don't particularly enjoy there job, most tell me that they entered as nurses and desired to be nothing else, but today they feel more like cleaners or admin workers.

Of my cousins wife, I have not advised her to leave at all. What I have suggested is that she speaks to her Union rep, and has an open conversation with her about her employment position with regards to the changing nature of the job, if anything what she would be entitled to in terms of a redundancy payment after 27 years of NHS service, or what are the chances of *preventing the fall in her grade, for herself and anyone else following in her shoes.*This is an important issue that should not be glossed over. I have also asked her to think of other flexible options that may be made available to her particularly during this time of in house upheaval. She drives, she could be mobile.

A little bit more insight, a grade E staff nurse has been doing the work of a G grade Sister. The G grade sister now takes care of all the paperwork, she is unable to do hands on nursing. The E grade staff nurse was disappointed she was not graded up for the 11 months she has done the G grade Sisters job, in addition to her own. The other nurse receives a lower grade than the E grade as she is only an SEN as opposed to SRN. If she accepts a lower grade she will be on a wage similar to that of an Auxilliary or nursing assistant. Which is not what she entered the service as.

Education authorities must ensure that they have adequate nursing staff to tend to the range of needs within special schools. If nursing staff is not maintained parents will take there children elsewhere.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Hello Dolores,

I'm sorry if you felt offended by the opening post of this thread.

You mentioned someone going off on a holiday returning and playing a sick card. Well I have another little story here. A nursing one again. A qualified staff nurse takes extended leave after having a hysterectomy. She is supposed to be recovering and on the sick. Instead I find her lugging great bags of shopping around town on several days over the first few months after the op. Sometime later I find her working in a supermarket for something to do, and before returning to work she takes a holiday to Tenerife. When she returns to work she works out all her holiday entitlements and takes them in one lump. It turns out she returns to works some 15 months later. She received 9 months at full pay and the remainder at half.

After a few years it turns out that she must have a full hysterectomy, the first was partial. She has not been back to work since, but is still being paid after 9 months.

Maureen
Northern angel.

They may well be, but it should be the manager's responsibility to, well, manage.

:)

Again in this service we are lacking managers...none of them would say boo to a goose and as a result no-one has any respect for them and we simply get on with our jobs and ignore them...when one manager did develop a bit of bone in his spine and speak forth about a particular employee with a drinking problem, which was resulting in numerous sick days, it was Human Remains that chatted with the guy once, he said he doesn't have a drink problem, and that was the end of it...he still has a drink problem and still goes sick all the time and has worked on all the watches at least once and is a liability no-one wants! The manager who did speak up hasn't bothered since and the others are still too spineless...

I think the biggest problem we have is the fact that most of the people in my line of work are ex-services and there's too much emphasis on what happens onboard ship stays onboard the ship kind of mentality. People would rather carry/cover for a colleague than 'grass' on him!

Bad management is rife and saddly every decent manager we have had has quit because they are fed up with being ignored or over riden by losers higher up the chain...a few of those have tried to address the sickness and drinking issues in the past but were, like I have just said, ignored or the person they reported was simply given a watch change which is not what the managers asked for!

I have to say one thing I cannot stand is martyrs who come in even when they are ill and then expect some kind of medal or reward for it. Get real you aint that indespensable give yourself a break!!

I have to say that i do this ..... in my current job anyway.

In every job i have EVER worked in, i have had sick pay. I have never abused it, and i think i tend to have about one day off sick a year.

In my current job however, we dont get sick pay. If im in bed dying - i have to go without a days wages too, and i cant afford to do that.

So, the only way to get around this is by dragging yourself into the office, and being sent home by the boss. That way they pay you.

I did this in January. I had a sickness bug, and i struggled to the office after an evening of throwing up and not sleeping (I really shouldnt of sat behind a wheel of a car). I came in, and threw up in the office toilets. I was sent home, and i got paid.

Again in this service we are lacking managers...none of them would say boo to a goose and as a result no-one has any respect for them and we simply get on with our jobs and ignore them...when one manager did develop a bit of bone in his spine and speak forth about a particular employee with a drinking problem, which was resulting in numerous sick days, it was Human Remains that chatted with the guy once, he said he doesn't have a drink problem, and that was the end of it...he still has a drink problem and still goes sick all the time and has worked on all the watches at least once and is a liability no-one wants! The manager who did speak up hasn't bothered since and the others are still too spineless...

I think the biggest problem we have is the fact that most of the people in my line of work are ex-services and there's too much emphasis on what happens onboard ship stays onboard the ship kind of mentality. People would rather carry/cover for a colleague than 'grass' on him!

Bad management is rife and saddly every decent manager we have had has quit because they are fed up with being ignored or over riden by losers higher up the chain...a few of those have tried to address the sickness and drinking issues in the past but were, like I have just said, ignored or the person they reported was simply given a watch change which is not what the managers asked for!

Hello Coastie,

Having sat in on an exam committee this morning and returned to a few hours of lovely sunshine. Sitting here in the coolness with the computer on my lap and reading your post. My heart goes out to you. As you seem to indicate this chap has been given every opportunity to rectify his problem. I don't know how dangerous the circumstances are that you have to deal with but if this chap is a liability surely they could ground him to land to deal with his problem again maybe at a clinic and if that should fail, they will have no other option but to fire him.

I do know in three of my sources of employment we would have got rid of him. Liabilities are not just dangers to themselves but to other people.

Maureen
Northern angel.

What? There are redundancies all over the place!

The law applies to workers in both public and private sectors, as does stautory redundancy pay. But an employee cannot demand redundancy if their job has not been put at risk by the employer.

If you're advising this relative otherwise, you are doing her a disservice.

Hello again fee,

Of course it looks like there are redundancies all over the place and I have no doubt that maybe one out of every two is a redundancy Without redundancy pay or settlement, with the exception of management and ministerial holders of office.

The problem is that the public sector do not have the funding available normally to pay for redundancies. The minion or ground force workers in say the Pensions office or the nurses in a hospital, have not had redundancy payments for the last 10 to 15 years. In actual fact another friend of mine confirmed for me how they manage to achieve voluntary redundancies. He's a civil servant. The practice is to say that changes are taking place in the nature of the job, this starts under your nose, some will be offered courses to update there skills, (normally younger employees who may have say 10 years to give to the service) once done you are called to justify your job through an internal appraisal.

A new manager is placed in post, the old manager has been moved to a more sedentary job with less pay and less hours (very rarely will they upgrade someone from the floor) and eventually job changes, job titles all begin to take on a new meaning. The few who were maybe less likely to do well in an appraisal, or to adapt to the required new skills find there new working environment untenable.

The employer in these circumstances has forced a situation which may or may not be justified and as a result staff at risk are made redundant, take voluntary redundancy or they are so pleased still to have a job they accept any other new position going and in the process lose out on some of there emloyee rights. Effectively changed job and taken on a new contract. The civil servant I referred to here found himself demoted from managing a team of people to handling the telephone enquiries point.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Many years ago, I worked for a courier company. The second biggest in Britain at the time. I liked the job it was highly competitive the more contracts I gained the larger my monthly bonus.

In other ways though my contract which had been certififed and checked as OK with ACAS was awful.

I had one week of paid negotiated holidays a year. This also involved an internal order of when you could take a holiday. I couldn't take it unless I had organised someone to take my place from the existing team. I was awarded three days occupational sick anything over and above that I would be required to sign on the sick. My employer had made no other cover. In addition to this I was given four of my statutory bank holidays a year, and of the remaining four normally statutory bank holidays - I was offered time off in leu.

In those days most of my friends used to advise me to re-open negotiations on my contract to resemble something closer to theres. Ho ho ho, what a laugh. My employer thought I was having him on, told me that private sector companies would bankrupt themselves if they gave all the perks of public sector workers to there employees. I never raised the subject again. But occassionally he would come in and award me with invitations to family weddings and birthdays, the theatre, he was football mad so we went to a match or two, a bunch of flowers and chocolates with no reason. Other than my favourite girl.

I was envious of all those whose contracts of employment was better than mine. But there is still one subject that really bugs me, and that is the number of repetitive abuses that is taken over sick days.:wallbash:

Maureen
Northern angel.

Mo, you talk about 'redundancy pay' as if it is some sort of perk!

I know you don't like being criticised, but based on your postings on the subject, its clear that your knowledge/interpretation of employment issues is either outdated or flimsy (probably a mix of the two).

While it concerns me that you could be giving misleading advice, I really am fed up reading it now.

If your boss retires [he's 70 this year]which means the end of the company [there's only the two of us] and you've worked for him for 6 years, are you entitled to redundancy money?



edit -oops sorry mo - off topic.....

If he's winding up the business, then in the UK, yes. And statutory payments are allowable expenses for tax purposes, as can some contractual severance payments.

Not sure about Eire, but I can't see it being much different, as we're all one big happy EU family.

I'd get something agreed and in writing though before he disappears permanently down the 19th hole :wink2:

cheers fee. :thumbsup:

It's a touchy subject to broach with him at the mo, and I was hoping it would just be a legal 'ism' and not something we'd have to get in writing between us.

we're doing well at the moment and we're both happy and I don't think he really wants to admit that he'll have to stop at some stage, and I don't want to make it any harder.....

right - I'm off to the 19th myself......:beer:

Here you go - all you need to know (http://www.entemp.ie/publications/employment/2004/guideredscheme.pdf) about Irish Redundancy.

you're an absolute star.:applause:

Mo, you talk about 'redundancy pay' as if it is some sort of perk!

I know you don't like being criticised, but based on your postings on the subject, its clear that your knowledge/interpretation of employment issues is either outdated or flimsy (probably a mix of the two).

While it concerns me that you could be giving misleading advice, I really am fed up reading it now.


Hello Fee,

My posts are all based on reality.

Not some flimsy whimsical fantasy island ideas that don't exist. Just reality.

As far as misleading advice is concerned I am licensed in my area of speciality and can not see how it is misleading to direct an individual to someone more appropriate according to certain circumstances, if you aren't sure.

Truth is most definitely stranger than fiction.

Redundancy payments in certain jobs is obviously not a right, in actual fact it costs firms far less to invite those who have served them for twenty years, twenty five years or thirty years even. To a celebration meal and a gold watch. Before the employee opts to leave or retire. The payment of redundancy pay in these circumstances would probably be enough to bankrupt a small firm. Self chosen opportunities to retire early or to take your leave, an employer could imply that it was not his choice for you to leave, he can avoid making any payments to you if he indicates that your job still exists, even if it is one which has become untenable.

The employer in Cousins wife situation is the NHS, they are reportedly bankrupt. Staff are leaving like the eternaly damned from a sinking ship.

Maureen
Northern angel.

As far as misleading advice is concerned I am licensed in my area of speciality and can not see how it is misleading to direct an individual to someone more appropriate according to certain circumstances, if you aren't sure.
Hi Mo, forgive me for being so nosy, but what is your area of speciality and what kind of licence do you have?

Truth is most definitely stranger than fiction.
I dunno - I've read some pretty strange fiction! :D

Redundancy payments in certain jobs is obviously not a right, in actual fact it costs firms far less to invite those who have served them for twenty years, twenty five years or thirty years even. To a celebration meal and a gold watch.
Can you give an example of a case where someone works for thirty years yet does not have a right to a redundancy payment?

Before the employee opts to leave or retire. The payment of redundancy pay in these circumstances would probably be enough to bankrupt a small firm. Self chosen opportunities to retire early or to take your leave, an employer could imply that it was not his choice for you to leave, he can avoid making any payments to you if he indicates that your job still exists, even if it is one which has become untenable.
I'm not sure what point you're making. Obviously choosing to leave is different to being made redundant. Are you talking about firms making people's lives intolerable so they quit? If so, is this not covered by constructive dismissal?

The employer in Cousins wife situation is the NHS, they are reportedly bankrupt. Staff are leaving like the eternaly damned from a sinking ship.
Who's reporting that the NHS is "bankrupt"? And in what manner do the eternally damned leave a sinking ship? Quickly? Slowly? Joyfully? Sadly? ;)

Hi Mo, forgive me for being so nosy, but what is your area of speciality and what kind of licence do you have?


I dunno - I've read some pretty strange fiction! :D


Can you give an example of a case where someone works for thirty years yet does not have a right to a redundancy payment?


I'm not sure what point you're making. Obviously choosing to leave is different to being made redundant. Are you talking about firms making people's lives intolerable so they quit? If so, is this not covered by constructive dismissal?


Who's reporting that the NHS is "bankrupt"? And in what manner do the eternally damned leave a sinking ship? Quickly? Slowly? Joyfully? Sadly? ;)

Hello Mikado, (Mick)

My speciality is in entertainment, and my license is that of an agent. I represent people who select to work in entertainment only or those who have more than one income source, where being a dancer a singer etc is there second income source to say a bank job, or teaching post, or a brickie on a building site.

PO Ferry workers and other holiday companies. Whether they are entertaining personnel or other workers. The large majority are deemed seasonal workers and should they opt to do three seasons over three years they are also disentitled to any state benefits after that three preriod for all subsequent times between. The wage or salary paid by such companies is supposed to hold or to have paid sufficient to carry someone over until work begins again.
The intermittent nature of the work even should these people have worked say 20, 25, 30 years or maybe longer is thus classed as taking a break.

Public service bodies and some private sector firms who can not pay redundancy payments maybe corporate profits are not sufficient to do this from some private sector companies, do refer to making workers lives so miserable they opt to leave of there own accord. It is covered under two sections of employment legislation constructive dismissal and unfair dismissal. Reported cases do occassionally come to light in the press if out of court settlements aren't reached prior to employment and industrial tribunials. The settlement then covers an amount for lost wages, inconvenience, and a redundancy award.

In relation to who's reporting the bankruptcy of the NHS it is the press who get to cover such editorials from the information leaked via Gov't ministers, and those holders of posts within the NHS. It is of course biased politically but there is most definitely something wrong when the the minion or ground force workers voice there concerns over A) job changes, b) income scale concerns c) pension rights, d) there own future prospects particularly when close to retirement and not all NHS workers have guaranteed pensions, to fall back on. The sadest case I read recently was the suicide of a prolific hospital specialist and administrator when she realised that her hospital trust was spending money it didn't have.

Maureen
Northern angel.

A little bit more insight, a grade E staff nurse has been doing the work of a G grade Sister. The G grade sister now takes care of all the paperwork, she is unable to do hands on nursing. The E grade staff nurse was disappointed she was not graded up for the 11 months she has done the G grade Sisters job, in addition to her own. The other nurse receives a lower grade than the E grade as she is only an SEN as opposed to SRN. If she accepts a lower grade she will be on a wage similar to that of an Auxilliary or nursing assistant. Which is not what she entered the service as.


A G grade Sister usually does move away from patient care and takes charge of alot of paperwork/ward management, (that's basically what a G grade is anyway, a manager) especially now in the current climate in the NHS, the G grade is in charge of a budget.

Then you come to the F grade Sister/Charge nurse, who has some management role but also has some hands on care.

As an E grade nurse, part of your role is to take charge of the ward in the absence of a sister (G or F grade), and no way would you expect to be upgraded to G grade pay.


Another point about taking on more responsibilities than your grade allows is that you should point this out at the time and not do tasks/jobs that you aren't qualified to do.

Anyway, the whole business regards grading is muted now as we have new grades with "Agenda for Change" which is trying to address the fact that people in the same grading were doing different jobs.
Now you have to prove yourself every year, (i.e. studying/practical objectives) to be able to continue up your increments.

Unlike the old grading were you were automatically put up an increment every year, whether you had improved in your job or not.

Public service bodies and some private sector firms who can not pay redundancy payments maybe corporate profits are not sufficient to do this from some private sector companies, do refer to making workers lives so miserable they opt to leave of there own accord. It is covered under two sections of employment legislation constructive dismissal and unfair dismissal. Reported cases do occassionally come to light in the press if out of court settlements aren't reached prior to employment and industrial tribunials. The settlement then covers an amount for lost wages, inconvenience, and a redundancy award.

Mo, please stop. None of that is accurate.

Just read your post again - what are these references made by companies about harassing people out of the business? Hardly good corporate governance - or PR! In any case, harassment potentially carries heavier remedies than a statutory redundancy payment, so it wouldn't make commercial sense.

And,

should they opt to do three seasons over three years they are also disentitled to any state benefits after that three preriod for all subsequent times between. I thought the Jobeekers Act 1995 stated a cycle of one year or more for seasonal work where the average hours are 16 hours or over? And, depending on personal circumstances, some could still claim eg Income Support.

Fee, don't you have some expertise in Job Law and redundancies and stuff like that?? I swear I thought you had told me that was your main body of work.

Fee, don't you have some expertise in Job Law and redundancies and stuff like that?? I swear I thought you had told me that was your main body of work.
No, she's a cleaner in an office msgirl, she just sneeks looks at the papers on the peoples desks and then comes and posts on here like she knows it all!!

Sssh. You promised not to tell. :glare:

No, she's a cleaner in an office msgirl, she just sneeks looks at the papers on the peoples desks and then comes and posts on here like she knows it all!!

Almost right, Buzzski. She is a cleaner, but in a well known university which specialises in law. She chose to work there because of her natural aptitude towards employment law; a way to "keep her hand in", if you will.

Less Good Will Hunting, more Germinator.

Almost right, Buzzski. She is a cleaner, but in a well known university which specialises in law. She chose to work there because of her natural aptitude towards employment law; a way to "keep her hand in", if you will.

Less Good Will Hunting, more Germinator.
Oh god, I really must learn to find out what I am talking about before I spout off mustn't I!:bag:

No one's told y'all you bunch were off your rocker have they???:unsure:

A G grade Sister usually does move away from patient care and takes charge of alot of paperwork/ward management, (that's basically what a G grade is anyway, a manager) especially now in the current climate in the NHS, the G grade is in charge of a budget.

Then you come to the F grade Sister/Charge nurse, who has some management role but also has some hands on care.

As an E grade nurse, part of your role is to take charge of the ward in the absence of a sister (G or F grade), and no way would you expect to be upgraded to G grade pay.

................:applause:

Another point about taking on more responsibilities than your grade allows is that you should point this out at the time and not do tasks/jobs that you aren't qualified to do.

.................:The e grade nurse is more than qualified to do the job of the G grade sister in a school, and in her absence ran the department perfectly well.

Anyway, the whole business regards grading is muted now as we have new grades with "Agenda for Change" which is trying to address the fact that people in the same grading were doing different jobs.
Now you have to prove yourself every year, (i.e. studying/practical objectives) to be able to continue up your increments.

Unlike the old grading were you were automatically put up an increment every year, whether you had improved in your job or not.

Hello Andrea,

This is truly an informative post.

Nursing must be one of the few areas where descrimination and inequalities still exist. My own personal view is that it is unfair. For example lets just say you have two financial advisers working in a bank. They are both on the same wage scale. There boss is also a financial adviser but has taken extended leave of say 6 months. The two remaining financial advisers have then to do there jobs and to ensure that all other managerial tasks are completed that would have formerly been done by there boss.

These two financial advisers would expect to take home a higher pay for the time there boss was on leave. In employment legislation they would have a case to put forward to have a review of there salary and contracts, should they decide to take it up. In the nursing scenario I've brought up, the E grade nurse has decided to leave at the end of the summer term. She's leaving to work in France but instead of going back into a school she's going back onto the wards.

The 'agenda for change' you have mentioned is a serious disincentive to the service and will result in mass staff shortages due to some of the hardest workers and the most highly qualified leaving. Holding nursing staff as accountable for there own productivity in my view is wrong. I know to many who have left.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Just read your post again - what are these references made by companies about harassing people out of the business? Hardly good corporate governance - or PR! In any case, harassment potentially carries heavier remedies than a statutory redundancy payment, so it wouldn't make commercial sense.

Pardon me Fee, but you know I agree with you here on this point. But I feel I must add that a vast number of particularly partime workers 16 hours and below and of say 3 years or less. Feel that they have to accept whatever employment details they are given. Certainly in such civil cases the legal aid system is prohibitive of employees deciding to take cases against an employer. In the entertainment industry a seasonal worker could well find themselves blacklisted for jobs and credit.


And,

I thought the Jobeekers Act 1995 stated a cycle of one year or more for seasonal work where the average hours are 16 hours or over? And, depending on personal circumstances, some could still claim eg Income Support.

The job seekers act is another bone of contention for those working 16 hours or less a week. The cycle must take 2 or 3 years to become established before it is considered seasonal, this is also at the discretion of an adjucation officer. (Civil servant) Lets just take a club act by example who work as a duo say 4 nights a week. 12 hours. Lets just say they have no other source of employment. At one time the two in question would claim a benefit to supplement income for the days they had no work on. That is no longer possible it's about 10 years ago when this was a possibility. Some foolishly used to think that if they did all or the bulk of there work on a Sunday they would not need to declare it. Tut tut, well this was most definitely fiddling. Again this was area cracked down on around 10 years ago also. Some artists today still ask for Sundays and when I tell them this is not how things work they don't like it.

For those who work over 16 hours a week seasonal or not, circumstance depending - they can claim tax allowances and reliefs with business expenditure, as the majority in these circumstances are self employed they would not be entitled to claim income support. However, family income supplements may be claimed if they have children. on a low income they can even claim an exemption from the payment of class one National Insurance, but this is not wise as this is the one thing which is used as a marker for future pension entitlement rights etc. In certain circumstances they may retain some housing benefit and community charge entitlement.

Earning allowances for those who claim benefits is 5.00 per week for a single person and 15.00 per week for a person married or single and with children. Income is taken into consideration above that against benefits.

The job seekers act does make some small provision for those trying a job out, but the job itself must be for a minimum of 6 months and must not have the potential to become seasonal.

Away from the entertainment industry there have been several cases where seasonal workers and partime workers have gone to law to settle a dspute. In Teeside school cleaners and dinner ladies did this, P and O ferries workers did this. This week gone a case of constructive dismissal was heard in the courts. The problem is the legal jargon, the writ, the court experience, the costs the hassle of getting legal aid etc when taken into consideration against the principle of someone who feels wronged by there employer is just to much. People at the lower end of the work and income threshold feel suppressed by a system that is more favourable to those who can afford it. With everything to gain and very little to lose.

Maureen
Northern angel.

In employment legislation they would have a case to put forward to have a review of there salary and contracts, should they decide to take it up.

Which particular legislation? What are their contractual terms? And is there any corporate precedent to consider, or any relevant collective agreements?

tut! tut! aren't you girls done with hanging NA out to dry yet?!

let it be!


<<Dolores shuffles off before she gets duffed up behind the bike sheds!!>>

Dol, I'm not duffing anyone up - I do however object to the consistent posting of misleading and innacurate 'facts'.

maybe you could ask NA to stop doing that :)

Dol, I'm not duffing anyone up - I do however object to the consistent posting of misleading and innacurate 'facts'.

maybe you could ask NA to stop doing that :)

Tut tut Fee,

You know none of this is misleading or inaccurate.

Ref earlier post, not heard of inequalities at work, or disputes over wages or negative and positive descrimination.

Did you know that what seperates a professional man and a woman in terms of income is about 7.000.00 per year for the same job?

But you know income can also seperate men from men in the same job with different titles or job descriptions, and likewise women at work.

You know in my other part time number as a University lecturer, I couldn't begn to tell you how many grade scales there are. They vary per subject, student intake, according to the qualification level of the tutor and length of service to a given department.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Ref earlier post, not heard of inequalities at work, or disputes over wages or negative and positive descrimination. But none of those necessarily apply to the scenario you described. Saying that someone in that position is protected by employment legislation is so sweeping a generalisation, that it is misleading.

And I find that unfair to anyone who might read your posts.

But you carry on, dear.

It's people with your level of understanding that keep my business healthy :laugh:

But none of those necessarily apply to the scenario you described. Saying that someone in that position is protected by employment legislation is so sweeping a generalisation, that it is misleading.

And I find that unfair to anyone who might read your posts.

But you carry on, dear.

It's people with your level of understanding that keep my business healthy :laugh:

Sadly Fee we don't keep HR businesses healthy. Some very wealthy solicitors become wealthier yes, Union reps take on greater importance when settling a dispute over collective contracts, or may desire to sit in on personal issues as and when raised. Some will offer free legal services to those who feel victimised at work if subscriptions have been maintained to cover this and at the end of the line if an agency is to be used. People register for work with whoever they feel can serve there needs. Today the Universities throughout Britain have had an increase in the number of mature students doing courses for the purpose of a career change.

The popular career change for nurses, is Social work or health assessment visitors after a three year single honours degree in social work.

Maureen
Northern angel.

I am utterly and completely lost on this topic...first it was abuse of sick days now NA, who I thought specialized in music and history is giving job law advice and Fee, who I thought specialized in job law is offering to correct inaccuracies, and so me being a pre-school director/teacher would never offer to give advice on say, brain surgery or horticulture. Just an observation from my side of the pond.:huh:

My speciality is in entertainment, and my license is that of an agent. I represent people who select to work in entertainment only or those who have more than one income source, where being a dancer a singer etc is there second income source to say a bank job, or teaching post, or a brickie on a building site.
Hi Maureen, that sounds very glamourous :) Do you represent anyone famous??

In your role as agent do you often have to deal with issues of sick leave and unemployment benefit? Hopefully your clients don't stay unemployed for too long!

PO Ferry workers and other holiday companies. Whether they are entertaining personnel or other workers. The large majority are deemed seasonal workers and should they opt to do three seasons over three years they are also disentitled to any state benefits after that three preriod for all subsequent times between. The wage or salary paid by such companies is supposed to hold or to have paid sufficient to carry someone over until work begins again.
The intermittent nature of the work even should these people have worked say 20, 25, 30 years or maybe longer is thus classed as taking a break.
Is it right that seasonal entertainers like this get no State benefits whatsoever, or just that they get different benefits (eg Income Support rather than Unemployment Benefit)? Do seasonal entertainers pay National Insurance in the same way as full-time salaried workers?

In relation to who's reporting the bankruptcy of the NHS it is the press who get to cover such editorials from the information leaked via Gov't ministers, and those holders of posts within the NHS.
You mean that Government Ministers have secretly been telling the press that the NHS is bankrupt?? I think that they chance of the NHS failing to meet its statutory obligations for redundancy are zero.

It is of course biased politically but there is most definitely something wrong when the the minion or ground force workers voice there concerns over A) job changes, b) income scale concerns c) pension rights, d) there own future prospects particularly when close to retirement and not all NHS workers have guaranteed pensions, to fall back on.
I agree, but concerns about pay and conditions seem common to just about any form of employment known to man. It'd be lovely to have an NHS where nobody had any concerns about their pay, pension and prospects, but I suspect the taxpayer would not be willing to foot the bill.

I am utterly and completely lost on this topic...first it was abuse of sick days now NA, who I thought specialized in music and history is giving job law advice and Fee, who I thought specialized in job law is offering to correct inaccuracies, and so me being a pre-school director/teacher would never offer to give advice on say, brain surgery or horticulture. Just an observation from my side of the pond.:huh:


Hello msgirl,

Oh I'm sorry, we have gone off on a tangent. I can't escape having to deal with areas of employment legislation/rehabilitation of offenders act and various union rights ie, equity, musicians union etc.. and in some cases benefit legislation for people, tax NI etc. I have also taken two years to put together a series of bite sized music business notes with exercises for the wanabe musician or singer, and at present I am discussing its possible publication. My music specialism comes in the form of representing two official arts bodies as a Music industry Mentor and the conditions of my employment instigate that I can serve these bodies better licensed and as the holder of two renewable certificates every three years so that I function practically at large scale gigs or classical concerts. For First aid and health and safety.

At 44 and no longer the spring chicken, although I do like to check the degree of caravan bounce still. :laugh: I do enjoy performing myself and have a small but regular income coming in from adverts I have sung on and the music excerpts from films I have done over the years.

On the other side of the coin, I am a qualified Sociologist Criminologist and Historian, and I also work in adult further education as a part time lecturer and seminar leader.

Of the many musicians and singers I have met over the years, some I've mentored, the vast majority are multi skilled as they must be to earn a decent standard of living. What they make from being musicians in the large majority is not sufficient to support a family or ordinary living costs.

The bone of contention for us is that we see some things as an abuse where as others would see things as an automatic right. Sick pay, is a big bone of contention as most musicians only get paid for what work they do.At local level. Above this, a management team and promotor however, can claim against losses of income, if say someone like George Michael, Diana Ross, Madonna should cancel a tour. The artists themselves at this level can only claim against a loss of income should they be holders of income protection policies with no clauses in relation to time schedule.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Hi Maureen, that sounds very glamourous :) Do you represent anyone famous??
It is glamourus at the top end, and I have over the years done my fair share hob nobbing, in such quarters. I have represented a few one off wonders, who become known and then disappear. I have had two small successes this year so far, (A young man who has just signed 125k I year I album deal 'Marc Bolam T Rex' sound alike and a folk singer who has just won an award, she has sang on television a few times and yes signed a 3 year 3 album cycle deal plus extras, She has just done a duet with Ronan Keating.Kate, our Kate Rusby) and at present before I can claim my third I'll have to wait at least 3maybe 6 months to see what CD sales are like in the new age vintage section. Parky is a very good sport and is very supportive of the up and coming artist.I am chuffed to bits.

In your role as agent do you often have to deal with issues of sick leave and unemployment benefit? Hopefully your clients don't stay unemployed for too long!

At the lower end of the industry sick leave is a rarity there is no cover. Unemployent benefit or benefits I have occassionally had to over look. But and its a big but, as soon as it looks like an artist has become established with regular work, that is from the same source for say 3 maybe 6 months, I am then obliged to put it to them to go self employed properly and to make all relevant declarations. They simply must sign off especially if the work happens to be 2 or 3 nights a week and not once a month. There is a way they can still claim unemployment benefit in certain parts of the country and that is on a New Deal for musicians package, but that is not available in Tyne and Wear. I personally would not offer to provide services of this nature as the paper shuffling involved is another job again, and its also not worth it.

Sadly even if I successfully manage to achieve employment for those I mentor for say 2 or 3 years, eventually they will tire and desire to move on.Unless of course they become known on a larger scale. Bonuses in these circumstances are provided for by agreement but there is no formal redundancy or severance package.

Is it right that seasonal entertainers like this get no State benefits whatsoever, or just that they get different benefits (eg Income Support rather than Unemployment Benefit)? Do seasonal entertainers pay National Insurance in the same way as full-time salaried workers?

If classed as working for an employer these seasonal workers should have National insurance deducted in the same way a full time worker has theres deducted. If these seasonal workers are self employed they are responsible for the payment of there own National insurance contributions, like any other self employed worker. If they claim exemption on grounds of low income they could well be doing themselves a serious disservice as Class one contributions that are exempt will disentitle them to there pension rights at a later date. The families however of self employed seasonal workers may still claim benefits in there own right.

You mean that Government Ministers have secretly been telling the press that the NHS is bankrupt?? I think that they chance of the NHS failing to meet its statutory obligations for redundancy are zero.

If we are to believe what we read as true, ( I know it is not always wise to believe everything you read as true ) but there must be some truth in it otherwise there may well have been an inditement to hold back and silence the press. Politically the NHS is still Britains pride and joy, but I am thinking here that it could also be used as a political lever , to influence the public for or against a ruling political party.Also a lever agianst the current prime minister from within his own party. Many core NHS workers will not receive redundancy payments.*They should receive severance pay in line with there original contracts of employment. This detail has been confirmed for me this morning, My cousins wife did seek advice last week from her union rep and this was confirmed.

I agree, but concerns about pay and conditions seem common to just about any form of employment known to man. It'd be lovely to have an NHS where nobody had any concerns about their pay, pension and prospects, but I suspect the taxpayer would not be willing to foot the bill.

I agree. Everything comes back to the tax payer. Yet if sick pay was tightened up within those public sector organsations, I am referring to occupational sick pay as opposed to statutory. The NHS may well be able to afford to pay all its hard pressed workers not just those at the top of the ladder.

Maureen
Northern angel.:bye:

Holding nursing staff as accountable for there own productivity in my view is wrong.

Holding nursing staff accountable for their own productivity/actions in my opinion is very important.

I would rather be looked after/work with a nurse who has kept herself/himself up to date with current knowledge and knows she/he is accountable for all her/his own actions, than work with a nurse who just scrapes along doing the bare minumum because "it's always been done this way"

Many core NHS workers will not receive redundancy payments.*They should receive severance pay in line with there original contracts of employment.

Could you explain how this 'severance pay' is expressed in their contracts?

Holding nursing staff accountable for their own productivity/actions in my opinion is very important.

I would rather be looked after/work with a nurse who has kept herself/himself up to date with current knowledge and knows she/he is accountable for all her/his own actions, than work with a nurse who just scrapes along doing the bare minumum because "it's always been done this way"

Hello Andrea,

Small changes can be a good thing in any job. Keeps you on your toes. The changes being set for Tyne and Wear Schools are not small but major.

But also worrying for those who have been doing there jobs without complaint or error for 27 years is that new staff with only 6 months in the job who decide to stir things up. I am referring here to a new nursing assistant who appears keen and then spends up to 5 hours out of 8 on her mobile phone to a boyfriend or sits at a computer playing games. She is not supposed to need instructions in her job - so if none are given she lets the others do the work and she has some fun. Afterwards, she then stirs the ****, and makes the working atmosphere as thick as cheese.
She also stirs things further with tittle tattle on how the G grade Sister runs things/and the E grade nurses.

The two problems together have been escalating and the nurses are talking of packing it in.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Could you explain how this 'severance pay' is expressed in their contracts?

Hello Fee,

I would love to if I had a copy.But according to my cousins wife there original contracts have long gone. In addition to this in the last 10 - 15 years whatever contractual conditions these nurses were working to have changed twice. Subsequent amendments over riding anything previous. This is as a result of what Nalgo call the Selling of the Nations Silver.

In 1996 there were 14 regional health authorities throughout Britain. All of these have undergone some degree of privatisation to become trusts. Some trusts have then gone on to place out work to agencies. The agencies contract out computersed management facilities and conveniently what was the NHS has opted out of making redundancy payments. I,e The NHS we all know is really a privatised health service. But we have a romantic affiliation with idea of the NHS so it is still referred to as such. The second route to getting out of making redundancy payments comes under several articles, all leading to employees accepting change or being made redundant;-

1)downturn in productivity..
2)increased levels of administratative and management technology..
3)relocation of departments..
4)merging trusts or agencies..
5)restructuring, ie, The Agenda for Change.

All of this is done by Collective consultation the employee with a respective employee representative at least 30 days before any advance notices of redundancy or job changes. Another legal entity which must be considered is the time given prior to changes being inaugurated and that is one week for each year worked. This is based on the longest serving worker within the unit.
This means that these changes will take place come September 2006.

The third and final route to not paying redundancy is to offer suitable alternative and acceptable employment within 4 weeks of the employee leaving. This is all covered under section 227 of the Employment rights act 1996.

One big major change on the redundancy front covered by a seperate act on redundancy payments, comes under Statutory limits. That is one weeks pay for each year and up to a maximum of 20 years at a fixed income rate of no more than 290 pounds per week. Anything in excess of that has to be privately negotiated between employee and employer at the time of signing the contract and agreeing to take a position of employment.

A white paper exists which covers NHS executives and there severance, redundancy, end payments, and in some cases Discretionary compensation for termination. Baring in mind any redundancy payments can be off set against a maximum of 66 weeks pay.The latter only available to teaching executives and teachers. On the provision that they can not receive any pension entitlements due to not being of retirement age.

Maureen
Northern angel.

1. Organisations - public or private - do not 'get out of' paying redundancy. They are bound by statute to seek alternatives. In layman's terms, the first rule of redundancy, is not to make redundancies. Yet you post as if redundancy pay is some form of perk that is preferable to continuing employment!

2. Redundancy summary (http://www.rcn.org.uk/news/campaigns/deficits/consultation.php)
Agenda for Change info (https://www.nhsemployers.org/restricted/downloads/download.asp?ref=323&hash=bc6dc48b743dc5d013b1abaebd2faed2)
Should clarify some of what you are trying to say

3. One big major change on the redundancy front What big major change are you referring to here?

1. Organisations - public or private - do not 'get out of' paying redundancy. They are bound by statute to seek alternatives. In layman's terms, the first rule of redundancy, is not to make redundancies. Yet you post as if redundancy pay is some form of perk that is preferable to continuing employment!

2. Redundancy summary (http://www.rcn.org.uk/news/campaigns/deficits/consultation.php)
Agenda for Change info (https://www.nhsemployers.org/restricted/downloads/download.asp?ref=323&hash=bc6dc48b743dc5d013b1abaebd2faed2)
Should clarify some of what you are trying to say

3. What big major change are you referring to here?

Hello Fee,

The information posted during the wee hours of the dawn is accurate according Nalgo records.

I do agree that the first point on redundancy is not to make any at all and it is desirable for employers to offer alternative employment where possible, or to allow time off for employees to find alternative employment should they so desire to.

Thank you for the link on the Agenda for change, it should make interesting reading if it is any different to the document I have received.

Maureen
Northern angel.

The way you have reported it is partly accurate Mo. And in employment law terms, that's 1000 miles away.

I've just been successful in having a claim struck out by a Tribunal because the claimant's advisor was guilty of the same thing and consequently missed a trick. :)

Good deal Fee.

Mo, I'm still lost on how you have expertise in job related law/sick time/ redundancy law, et. al., given your musical/historical majors.:unsure:

The way you have reported it is partly accurate Mo. And in employment law terms, that's 1000 miles away.

I've just been successful in having a claim struck out by a Tribunal because the claimant's advisor was guilty of the same thing and consequently missed a trick. :)

Hello Fee,

I am now feeling a bit under the weather.I've had a rather long two or three days. I didn't in all honesty envisage being of assistance at all in the matter of NHS redundancies I've raised here. But tonight I have held a barbeque and thinking it would help my cousins wife invited her and her immediate head of department from school, my neighbour who works as a consultant in a hospital and a friend from Unison.

Without the stress of formal surroundings these four have had an informal discussion.

You'll be pleased to note that the document you recommended on the AGENDA FOR CHANGE is exactly the same as what we have had as a hard copy to scutinise tonight. Which I will tell you has had me scratching my poor head something silly. Section three covering 'terms of service' plus the negatory aspects of the Exclusion to liability bits. I also printed off some details relating to bullying at work and progressive management making for an environment of discontent.

My neighbour was very helpful suggesting that working relations between staff should not be allowed to become additionally tense or trying as a result of forthcoming changes. The two new recruits of 6 months and one year will hopefully now be required to voice any discontent they have at source rather than stiring it up with management. If necessary they must follow the greivance procedure route. Should either of them find more time for personal phone calls and computer games instead of working. Other than that they need to be supportive of each other as a team.

The unison rep has suggested that my cousins wife and her immediate boss the G grade sister, should forget the idea of leaving. Leaving a public service body will mean redundancy rights being lost, in addition to that following any claim for constructive or unfair dismissal or assisted resignation from post on any grounds is very difficult to prove. Especially since the powers that be will forward in there defence any alternatives to redundancy so therefore they would still have had a job, a condition of there employment should allow for some degree of flexibility. On the subject of the gradings, he suggested that it was better to accept an alternative and to keep the pay grades as they stand, rather than to leave the working scenario alone and let them fall. The latter was not what she wanted to hear but at least she has a fairer idea of where she stands now.

The Unison rep also indicated that there were large numbers of special needs teaching staff and house mothers who were not happy about the introducton of a medical proviso in there contracts. When such schools are supposed to have a nursing team.

My barbeque Soire ended at midnight and the last guest left at 1 am. I just hope they haven't got a hangover in the morning. :w00t:

BTW the biggest change on the redundancy front...concerns the nature of how lucrative they were at one time within public service bodies, voluntary redundancy packages were offered as an incentive in the private sector when companies were attempting to thin down the numbers of staff. Now redundancy has been statutorily set and is nowhere near as high.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Good deal Fee.

Mo, I'm still lost on how you have expertise in job related law/sick time/ redundancy law, et. al., given your musical/historical majors.:unsure:

Hello msgirl,

Music will always be my first love. IT is what I am dedicated to as a performer and mentor. Music is my obsession. Musicians singers and composers throughout there own personal histories have always had another area of knowledge, expertise, qualification or experience.

There is a very good reason why musicians singers and composers have had to develop alternatative areas of expertise interest etc, Not every artist can expect to earn a living entirely from there art. It is a very practical issue and a bone of contention that artists feel they should do this.

Of those who fail to take up an alternatative source of work, some artists may find that they are able to sustain themself on a low standard of living for a few years, until they tire and the work dries up. Some may be unemployed and feel that society owes these lazy ones a living. One in every five to ten thousand will make it big and need never worry about how they will make there living. Instead they'll worry that the accountant and management firms aren't ripping them off. To the tune of millions of dollars.

Academically, to many moons ago 26 years ago, I passed my A level law exam and additionally took two years law society exams specialising in negligence, at the same time as studying on a theatre music course. My first official jobs were legally orientated, whilst also active in professional theatre. My father was always saying to me Maureen if all this music doesn't come to any fruition for you, you will need something to fall back on.

Hence I have always juggled between the two. A musically paying environment and an alternative in an area of interest.I have also been a recruitment officer twice over. Before deciding to do more in the world of Education and Academia. Becoming an Academic and working historian criminologist and sociologist, during the years in which I was least active musically, but cared for my late father.

I have an American style Resume covering all of my musical experiences and a standard British CV, the latter I have had redrawn professionally twice since 1999 to accomodate changes.
So today I juggle with the two.

I don't know if this has helped any. I do not know everything about employment law or redundancy legislation etc, but I do sense when things don't sound right, and I 'll ponder the subject until it starts to gel. When something is important, and I have seen how upset people can get in there working environments, I try to help. Sometimes though it gets very frustrating if people show no interest in helping themselves, and instead giving me ear ache for the sake of it.

Maureen
Northern angel.:wub:

Mo, the stautory redundancy levels have been in place since the 60s. The big redundancy payments were additional and haven't been commonly found for years, and in any case, the actual figure people end up with has been affected by the tightening of the rules regarding taxation of the other stautory elements of payments associated with terminations.

I still maintain that your level of expertise in this area is weak, in a 'you don't know what you don't know' sort of way. Employment law is not something that can be dabbled in. I deal regularly with situations where someone has taken advice from someone with your credentials and 9 times out of 10 all that happens is that the waters get muddied with the greatest negative impact being on the poor soul that took the advice.

I was going to take a break as on this thread and another I have felt serious undertones. I may still do this.

Nevertheless, I feel it is imperative to say that whenever someone has come to me to seek help or advice in person, I do give my best. I will arrive at the right answer by hook or by crook, even if this is with additional help. I am a perfectionist and I do not tolerate fools for to long. No need for concern about negative impact on these poor souls. In my own specialist area the legislation is an absolute minefield, but I do know it like the back of my hand. Employment law is not for dabbling in, so I am not dabbler, yet every single jobcentre worker with or without any relevant qualifications does have knowledge of all the details, the tax office and pensions office worker also hold an average amount of info on employment legislation and because they so often get it wrong. (The main pressure of work being the appearance of maintaining having nothing to do with an office almost full of people.) Is it any wonder that solicitors, employment agencies with there relevant HR specialisms are in demand?

I personally feel and this is my opinion, that if occupational sick pay was tightened up across all public service bodies, it would save an awful lot of money and those of us who see current abuses of it would feel a darn sight better about it. It could salvage some redundancies.

In relation to the AGENDA FOR CHANGE publication it really could do with being recycled via a hole and a piece of string for hanging in a Pit Head *Netty. The only saving grace the document has is the fact that it is very well written and so easy to understand it is almost unbelievable that a government management team/NHS executive could come up with it. I had expected it to be full of management speak and codes. Unfortunately, I do not think it will be possible for it to be entirely inaugurated on grounds of cost, that its implementation will further add to the NHS debt.

Maureen
Northern angel. (Couldn't resist posting)

*Geordie term for toilet.

I felt terrible today as I came into work with a sore eye and after a lot of persaussion from my fellow workers I snuck out the office to get my eye looked at by a local optician...I now feel bad as I have to go and see the doctor at 1630 to get some meds for it after the optician refered me...I hate taking time off work and was all set to try and see the doctor tomorrow if my eye complaint continued but the guys and girl I work with kept telling me...in light of the fact it looks worse than it turned out to be...I should go imediately and get it seen to! :nerd:

Hello Coastie,

I hope your eye is allright and that whatever is troubling it, is a minor problem which will right itself very quickly.

Maureen
Northern angel.

I cant be a$$ed to quote it takes too long for me to do it all......

Maureen, you mention an "individual" who has been off for 8 months recovering from back surgery, I have been off since July 13th last year, so what would you suggest for a person like me hmmmmmmm??? Shoot the biatch??? :glare:

I STILL dont know how long I will be off as I am awaiting further surgery for another prolapsed disc, I have been told it could be Aug or Sept now before I have the op and its at least 3 months recovery which will take my total time off to nearly 18 months - DO YOU THINK I AM ENJOYING THIS?????????

First of all, I will present you with FACTS - a company does NOT have to pay full salary for a person off sick, they DO however, have to pay SSP for 28 weeks - this is then CLAIMED BACK on the monthly PAYE tax return from the Government. Many companies "top up" salaries and it is my belief (NOT A FACT!!!!) that this is done because if the money wasnt used on salaries, it would then become a "profit" amount, therefore becoming taxable! IT also is good business sense to offer something like this as it helps promote loyalty from your staff....

In my last firm, (here in the Midlands) full pay while off sick was at the discretion of the MD......there were very few and far between that benefited, I was one, when I had my Gall Bladder removed I was paid full pay for 2 weeks for recovery - all of the other time off was SSP only (and there was quite a bit over 3 months, while waiting to be diagnosed - I had the op done privately at a cost of 5k as the waiting list was 12-18 months - I opted to pay as my MD offered to lend me the money to be deducted from my salary after I had a mini breakdown in his office because I was worried about taking time off sick).

I am 42 this year, I worked part time from 14, and full time from when I left school at 17, I have not taken time out to breed like most women, the only time I havent worked (excluding a redundancy - signed on and got a job all on the same day! So never got any dole money!!!!) was last year and I was in a position where Mr I supported me, NOT the Government!!!

Apart from a flu bug in the late 80's and tonsilitis in the 90's, I cant recall any other major sick time I have had, there may be the odd day with upset tum, but thats about it - not bad from the age of 14 hey??????

So to sum up, do I feel guilty at claiming SSP and Benefits that I AM ENTITLED TO, hell no I dont, if it wasnt for taxpayers like me, there would be no money for anyone in the 1st place!

DO I despise the devils that abuse the system, HELL YES!!!! I have been a Financial Controller and Personnel Manager, so I do understand about the people that abuse the system, and now being one of those that NEEDS the system I also know what it is like to be treated like a hypocondriac by hospital staff because they dont believe that there is something wrong with you - however, the speed in which I was transferred from Torbay Hosp Radiology to Derriford Hosp Neuro Dept certainly shows that the b*st*rds got it WRONG with me - and that STILL ENRAGES ME!!!!!!:ranting: :ranting:

I am now in a position where my employer is telling me that my sickness cannot go on indefinately, which although I appreciate this from an Employers point of view, I am NOT prepared to resign because I am not able to work - I am classed as temporarily disabled, I am in constant pain and need crutches in the house and a wheelchair outside, I am doped up on various medications, which have horrible side effects........so at present, being Isis is pretty cack, I would do ANYTHING to be at work rather than existing, because thats all it is at the moment, an existance!!

FORGOT TO SAY.......................

If anyone does have any queries or concerns about any Employment Law, I dont consider myself an expert, but it is an area I am knowledgeable in.....

And for your information - EMPLOYEES & EMPLOYERS can call ACAS who will help and advise and are listed in the Yellow Pages - they are based in Birmingham!

Hello Isis,

The sick pay that I was discussing was occupational. Nevertheless, thank you for the details on statutory sick pay. the circumstances I had also brought up is within the public sector. The public sector is where most abuses take place, and we the general public would view it as a waste. A waste of our taxes.

The person with the back surgery I spoke of apparently slipped a disc at work but had broken the lifting rules and regulations with reference to an extremely heavy child in a wheelchair. No hoist. It's unbelievable but even the accident book was in accurate. She is back at work now but says she still feels a tingling kind of pain in her lower back. She has indicated that if she needs more surgery in the future she will look at alternative health service posts where she will not have to do any nursing whatsoever. Ideally if she can get to 60 and in post she'd take her retirement entitlement but that is several years away yet.The rest of this team have all dispersed to fit in with the AGENDA FOR CHANGE.

You have gone through a lot over the years, and I have to say it even if you feel this is patronizing, I admire you for your stamina- I am certain I would have given up. I shouldn't feel guilty at all about claiming your statutory sick pay you are entitled to it, somebody else somewhere is abusing that also and the government have sought ways to introduce medical testing and examinations to check the viability of long term claims. I hope you don't become a victim of an administrative bungle to catch out the wasters.

The medical profession can get it wrong, but you know if I were you. I'd be tempted to seek legal advice, especially if you feel that the treatment you have had has made you worse, or has rendered you unabale to work and therefore you have lost x amount of salary. Also there was a case recently which changed NHS legal history, when an elderly person took her local NHS trust to court after having paid for private surgery for a Hip replacement, she won her case and the NHS had to refund her costs. This case was only in the news a few weeks ago. If I had the link I'd quickly post it.

I know not all cases are the same, but this area may be worth checking out, in the light of all that negative experience, family upheaveal and a recent bereavement and on top of that paying 5K for private surgery, all seems a bit much. I'd definitely be heading for a nervous breakdown.

Try to stay on top ISIS. Don't get mad get even.

BTW, ACAS, Equity, Musicians Union plus solicitors and accountants assist me with all my contractual details. They are great.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Well Maureen Im afraid I DO find you patronising and as someone who is being classed (IMHO) as a "waster" by her employers, you wont change my mind on any of it yet.....

I was paid full pay for some of my time sick, but hadnt been there for a year therefore wasnt entiltled for it for very long.......

My SSP ran out on 28th Jan - ironically the day Mr I died........I was then keeping the 3 of us and paying a 600+ monthly mortgage with my DLA, a MASSIVE 80 quid a week. There was a delay in my claim for IS and IB because the MUPPETS in the payroll dept dont know WTF they are doing and I had to chase them for 6 weeks to get the relevant paperwork so that I could process my claims...... If it wasnt for my parents, my house would have been repossessed and I would have ended up in a padded cell I think!

As stated previously. occupational sick pay is PUT IN PLACE BY THE EMPLOYER not the Government, therefore, if you feel this strongly, I would suggest you take it up with your employer..... Start a petition for the dreadful people who are daring to take time off sick and be paid for it, never mind their physical and mental health...... cos I bet you dont really KNOW these people (as in friends)....

Perhaps if you had suffered the pain of a slipped or prolapsed disc then you would have a little more compassion.........as you dont appear to me to have any at present!

I also hope that by the time YOU need the system it has changed!!!!!!!

I strongly suggest you actually THINK before you start spouting your ****e in future, cos you have really p1ssed me off!!!!!

And as for talking to you if I need to - I would rather stick a red hot poker up my a$$.......I have friends and family that are here for me, those that actually undertand what I have been through, that dont class me as a statsitic!!!! and I mean friends on here as well as RL!!!

Well Maureen Im afraid I DO find you patronising and as someone who is being classed (IMHO) as a "waster" by her employers, you wont change my mind on any of it yet.....

You don't need me to try to change your mind, your experience of the system below tells you it is possible for administrators to make mistakes.

I was paid full pay for some of my time sick, but hadnt been there for a year therefore wasnt entiltled for it for very long.......

My SSP ran out on 28th Jan - ironically the day Mr I died........I was then keeping the 3 of us and paying a 600+ monthly mortgage with my DLA, a MASSIVE 80 quid a week. There was a delay in my claim for IS and IB because the MUPPETS in the payroll dept dont know WTF they are doing and I had to chase them for 6 weeks to get the relevant paperwork so that I could process my claims...... If it wasnt for my parents, my house would have been repossessed and I would have ended up in a padded cell I think!

As stated previously. occupational sick pay is PUT IN PLACE BY THE EMPLOYER not the Government, therefore, if you feel this strongly, I would suggest you take it up with your employer..... Start a petition for the dreadful people who are daring to take time off sick and be paid for it, never mind their physical and mental health...... cos I bet you dont really KNOW these people (as in friends)....

Perhaps if you had suffered the pain of a slipped or prolapsed disc then you would have a little more compassion.........as you dont appear to me to have any at present!

I also hope that by the time YOU need the system it has changed!!!!!!!

I strongly suggest you actually THINK before you start spouting your ****e in future, cos you have really p1ssed me off!!!!!

And as for talking to you if I need to - I would rather stick a red hot poker up my a$$.......I have friends and family that are here for me, those that actually undertand what I have been through, that dont class me as a statsitic!!!! and I mean friends on here as well as RL!!!

Isis I don't see you as a statistic, and I don't see you as a waster. But I will say this it is always the genuine claimants who suffer as a result of the none genuine.

Maureen
Northern angel

Mo, sometimes you just wade in and find out later that you have gotten in over your head. Hope that you haven't hurt Isis too badly as she's had a lot on her plate the past few months and as long as I've known her she has been one tough and righteous chick!! Try to consider that we have people in her situation that post on here and you have been told by numerous people as well as me that your patronizing attitude is OTT. Just some blunt advice from a blunt person.:sun:

Isis I don't see you as a statistic, and I don't see you as a waster. But I will say this it is always the genuine claimants who suffer as a result of the none genuine.

Maureen
Northern angel

Oh WHATEVAAAAAAAAA Maureen..........in the grand scale of things that is my life do you really think I give a flying toss WHAT you think????????

I would suggest that before you start picking and preaching over something you know diddly squat about, you CHECK YOUR FACTS!!!!!! Failing that, dont BOTHER posting!!!!