They all seem to be dying on their árses......any thoughts why? :huh:

I dont think they are. Digital Spy continues to go from stength to strength .... although i dont post there like i post here. I tend to watch more.


I just think this forum needs new people. People who used to post a lot like CAT have dissapeared - and many (like me) dont tend to have to imagination to start up new threads. She did.

New blood would be good, but no someone that says 'hi' and slinks off - we need a regular poster.

So is anyone doing anything about it? Is it up to the owner to promote the site or could the members do anything?

Maybe someone could set up an "invite a friend" function, where you put in the e-mail addresses of people you think might like to join, friends & colleagues, etc, then an e-mail is automatically generated and sent to them, saying Hi, &so&so& thought you might be interested in our site, <insert link>, what the place is all about, come and have a look round. Kind of thing.

I think a lot of people end up here by chance, by searching for some TV show or other, not actually looking for a messageboard, so they're unlikely to stay around once they've visited.

I'd be more inclined to go look at a place if I'd been invited.

I don't think there's any point trying to drag back people who've already left or stopped posting. They did so for a reason and that reason is bound to come back again eventually.

I don't want any new people. I like the fact that it's like a care in the community coffee morning around here and the same out drop-outs turn up every week for a warm styofoam cup of something and a soft rich tea finger.

I find it comforting to know you'll all confined in the same place and not out there mixing with real people

My cousin Vera goes to one of these places in Carshalton. They have custard creams there and a very good singer called Norman.

and a soft rich finger.

Im quite partial to a soft rich finger ...... it certainly gets my juices flowing.

longshot, your accent sure has changed.

I think this is only a problem for a particular type of forum. Forums like Digital Spy, Big Brother and professional forums that discuss a specific product (e.g. type of car or a piece of software) are thriving. But these forums are used primarily as sources of information. They might have a number of regular posters, but they aren't really "online communities".

Its the smaller community forums like this one that are dying. People leave, but are not replaced.

I think the main reason is because community forums don't have a focus - they are just a bunch of folks who become friendly and log on to banter with each other. This is great for those people, but to a lot of people it doesn't really offer anything interesting. Even for those people who are looking for new friends, an established community with in-jokes and banter can seem cliquey and closed. Often, unless a new member can make an impact fairly soon, their posts just get ignored after the initial rush of welcomes. This isn't a criticism of SO, it happens everywhere, but if someones posts are ignored where's their incentive to continue posting?

Community forums also have the tendency to "drive away" or ban contraversial people and this has an impact on the forum dynamic. Without passion a community forum can become stagnant, and it is often the less popular and more contraversial posters whose posts result in the more passionate posts. Their views or attitudes may be unpalatable to many members, but those people bring a forum to life. A lifeless forum is as unattractive to a new person as a cliquey one. Again, this is not a criticism, its just what happens.

If you combine all this with the fact that some members will just for their own personal reasons, what you have is a reduced number of members, with nothing to attract new people to stay.

Its basically a slow decline and its happening on lots of community forums.

I'd say mini meets are the way forward. Lots of splinter groups charged with recruiting new members.

Who will join me in this quest?

Next Thursday's good for me.

Next Thursday's good for me.

Well, what do you know .... me too :pimp:

Really? PM me NOW!!!!

Well that wasn't really called for, was it? I was only asking. :(

Well that wasn't really called for, was it? I was only asking. :(

Hey, you deserved it :mellow:

I didn't want to meet you anyway. :glare:

I didn't want to meet you anyway. :glare:

Likewise .... my friends here are FAR classier.

I use another couple of forums. They are really active

I think here it's the name now. It harks back to a show that's been dumped and so misleads.

This Forum is now "Reality TV Drivel" so perhaps rebranding is needed?

I think a lot of people have gone off forums and now do blog-spotting.

What is blog spotting Slipps?

They all seem to be dying on their árses......any thoughts why? :huh:
I reckon we should find another forum where people like to natter about what's on the box, and offer to merge with them :)

PS congratulations on your heroic effort to double the post count last night!

Why do I feel so sad today, are we really so few in number. Apparently SO has 90 active members and within the last 24 hours 43 have logged on.

It is the summer and many members will be away on holidays, a few more will be going soon. Including myself.

A few weeks ago I came up with an idea I thought some of you might feel was crazy and that was to start a rota to pm or email past members, maybe its not such a crazy idea. Do you think in the current climate we should ask Haydon if we can do this? Maybe running past him first a list of all those we'd like to pm or email.

I confess I have kept in touch with some members who do not frequent us all that often and I know that msgirl has jokingly set up a thread that asks whether I've been out recruiting. But some of these members have paid us a number of visits and posted.

Irrespective of what you think of me, and I don't mean to brag here. But I have tried, I am loyal, and I would not deliberately let you down or suggest an idea that would be a complete dud.

What do you think?

What should we do if anything?

I do think we need new members maybe SO needs an advert through a search engine?

Do you think I am mad Haydon?

Maureen
Northern angel. :wub:

How about creating a thread that might catch Google Spider's eye.

Something like "Geordie Singing Survivor in Big Brother G4 Free Sex Shocker".

Do you think that might work?

We get one of these threads every now and then but nothing really changes does it. We just continue to limp along really.
As you all know SO was originally created just for the Survivor tv show. I was surprised when people stayed even after the show was scrapped. We then moved onto other reality tv shows.
As Figaro said, the really successful forum sites have a focus.

There is so much competition out there now. Setting up a forum used to be fairly difficult but now it's relatively easy. It's not just forums though. As someone else pointed out, blogging is now very big and there lots of other better sites out there.

As the forum owner I should really do more to promote the site. As usual it's down to time and finances.

A couple of things I would like to do:
1. Run a referal competition. Members recruit new members and the person with the most referals in a month wins a prize. However, prize often = money. Haydon - money. Here's a longshot... anyone willing to donate a prize in return for free advertising?

2. Have a regular email newsletter. This is a time issue for me, plus I'm not a very good writer. A newsletter with latest news and reviews would encourage people to keep coming back to the site. Is there anyone who is good at writting that would like to do a newsletter?

The site name - this has been raised before but generally the concensus has been to stick with SO. I don't think changing the name will suddenly make it hugely successful, but I also think if the name were changed the SO community would follow.

Perhaps SO is missing something. So let me ask you all, is there anything that you would like to see on SO? What other sites do you visit? Why do you visit them? What have they got that you don't get from your SO fix?

Please can we keep this thread on topic.

Something like "Geordie Singing Survivor in Big Brother G4 Free Sex Shocker".







I'll do my bit..



Abi Titmus Nude

Abi Titmus Nude

Abi Titmus Nude

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Abi Titmus Nude

Abi Titmus Nude

Abi Titmus Nude

Abi Titmus Nude

Abi Titmus Nude

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Annabelle Chong
Annabelle Chong
Annabelle Chong
Annabelle Chong
Annabelle Chong
Annabelle Chong
Annabelle Chong
Annabelle Chong
Annabelle Chong
Annabelle Chong
Annabelle Chong

Barrymore Pool
Barrymore Pool
Barrymore Pool
Barrymore Pool
Barrymore Pool
Barrymore Pool
Barrymore Pool
Barrymore Pool
Barrymore Pool
Barrymore Pool
Barrymore Pool

We get one of these threads every now and then but nothing really changes does it. We just continue to limp along really.
As you all know SO was originally created just for the Survivor tv show. I was surprised when people stayed even after the show was scrapped. We then moved onto other reality tv shows.
As Figaro said, the really successful forum sites have a focus.

Hello Haydon, Maybe the forum focus points need to be made larger and to focus on the prime TV reality programme underlined for that month. Everything else in smaller print, so that they are still accessible but not the main focal point of the website.

There is so much competition out there now. Setting up a forum used to be fairly difficult but now it's relatively easy. It's not just forums though. As someone else pointed out, blogging is now very big and there lots of other better sites out there.

As the forum owner I should really do more to promote the site. As usual it's down to time and finances.

A couple of things I would like to do:
1. Run a referal competition. Members recruit new members and the person with the most referals in a month wins a prize. However, prize often = money. Haydon - money. Here's a longshot... anyone willing to donate a prize in return for free advertising?

Hello Haydon, I hope you don't mind a comment between the odd line or so. As the forum was set up to follow a TV programme. Survivor, is it possible that the TV companies would like to advertise on a seperate magiazine page or link in the forum.If you'd like me to check this out, I will do it.

Referal competition, I think is a good idea, but instead of a prize i,e book tokens or record tokens, t shirts etc, would it not be feasible to offer three months free membership.That way internet security safety would not be breached.

2. Have a regular email newsletter. This is a time issue for me, plus I'm not a very good writer. A newsletter with latest news and reviews would encourage people to keep coming back to the site. Is there anyone who is good at writting that would like to do a newsletter?

I am definitely not the letter writer, however you have a good point here. I have seen and receive a newsletter from another forum and an online magazine affair. Does it have to be monthly, what about quarterly and instead have a monthly news page that the members could build up themselves.

The site name - this has been raised before but generally the concensus has been to stick with SO. I don't think changing the name will suddenly make it hugely successful, but I also think if the name were changed the SO community would follow.

Perhaps SO is missing something. So let me ask you all, is there anything that you would like to see on SO? What other sites do you visit? Why do you visit them? What have they got that you don't get from your SO fix?

Please can we keep this thread on topic.

I don't know how much one or two new skins would cost, Haydon but I would willingly subscribe or cover the cost of a new skin. At present I use the blue one, but the orangey one, chocolate etc do nothing to render SO attractive to the eye. I know the ones you have been using are free, but they don't cost the earth do they. If you'd like to pm please do.

Maureen
Northern angel.

I like talking to strange people with wierd accents...the Coffee Lounge, Soapbox, and Games and Riddles sections are all I really venture into. I like our core group, even in our little squabbles, we all seem to WANT to contribute (WHERE IN THE HELL IS CAT??? PATSY???) and I've made some RL friends in the process. I will be willing to recruit more people...they'll be Colonials, as y'all are the only 'ferenors' I know!! I have a few peeps in mind that may be interested...

I dont think i could / would recruit anyone. They all think im a weirdy geek for posting on here .... and if i ever meet you guys - cor blimey, i wouldnt hear the end of it.

So no, i dont think i will be asking any of them to join. You guys are my guilty secret (apart from hubby who knows im a weirdy geek).

Perhaps SO is missing something. So let me ask you all, is there anything that you would like to see on SO? What other sites do you visit? Why do you visit them? What have they got that you don't get from your SO fix?


OK I understand some might not be interested in recruiting and want to keep SO their dirty little secret ;) ,but what about the other points?
See quote above - Anyone?

What other sites do you visit? Why do you visit them? What have they got that you don't get from your SO fix?


Erm, nudity mostly :ninja:

Unfortunately, my host doesn't allow nudity. (otherwise there would already be nudity)

Ill get me bazooka's out for you Haydon :w00t:

On a strictly one to one basis you understand :bag:

There you go H, how about a members section........know what I mean when I say "members"? :w00t:

Good idea - I think you should run with that one Haydon. You'd only need a teeny-weeny bit of space for the boys section. :w00t:

Good idea - I think you should run with that one Haydon. You'd only need a teeny-weeny bit of space for the boys section. :w00t:
And a colossal bit of space for the women's arses no doubt! :ninja:

I dont think i could / would recruit anyone. They all think im a weirdy geek for posting on here .... and if i ever meet you guys - cor blimey, i wouldnt hear the end of it.

So no, i dont think i will be asking any of them to join. You guys are my guilty secret (apart from hubby who knows im a weirdy geek).


Oh no Bonsai, we aren't a bunch of weirdy geeks. I have had a similar reaction when I've spoken of SO, even the internet in general. "What you want me to sit in and talk gibberish to someone I don't know, are you off your rocker"? "Oh blasted well yes, I'm off my rocker but aren't you also - spending every afternoon after work drinking? Then you moan you've got no money for holidays and you envy my lifestyle."

I think of this an internet pub. We meet discuss TV and whatever news has in store for us this week.Anything else is a bonus.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Oh dear PJ! You mentioned 'colossal' and 'arses' in the same sentence.

If I could unwedge myself from this seat, you'd be in trouble :laugh: :boxing:


Edited to change '****' to 'arses'. It would appear that multiple arses are better than one bum

There you go H, how about a members section........know what I mean when I say "members"? :w00t:


Hello Groucho,

I have been led to believe some SO members are not [COLOR="SandyBrown"]WE, if you know what I mean?[/COLOR

The heat is really getting to me at first I thought I'd read msgirl was going to introduce us to some Cannibals and not Colonials. I have to ask my personal slave to hose me down, my brain is not working aswell as it should.

SO does satisfy me, but if it were to attract newbies to stay and post, maybe the site needs a little decor change and yes a newsletter/come magazine type page. Are there any budding writers who'd like to give it a go?
If so please volunteer.

Willing to do my bit, and if interested willing to subscribe to or cover costs for a new skin. Haydon.

Tell me the heat hasn't got me, that wasn't cannibis available via the space bar.

Must escape to the other side. :yahoo: :drinking: :drinking: :pizza: Wish you could join me.

Maureen
Northern angel.

I have been led to believe some SO members are not [COLOR="SandyBrown"]WE, if you know what I mean?[/COLOR


Nope. Sorry Mo. No idea whatsoever. :huh:

Who's this Sandy Brown and when is she joining?

You're gender confused again SF!

Alexander Brown is a musician. He graduated in harpsichord and looks a right bundle of laffs

http://www.simuzik.com/brown/img/Alex1.jpg

No, Fiona. THIS is Sandy Brown.

http://www.pdy.k12.oh.us/successworks/Images/SandyB1-2.jpg

Remember Hale & Pace's Billy and Johnny characters? She was their inspiration.

Ooooh, I do like it when you call me by my proper name :blush:

Does she know a song about this Sandy Brown?

http://cards.littleoak.com.au/196869_fks/062_sandy_brown.JPG

No, but this Sandy Brown knows art when she sees it.

http://www.sandybrown.freeserve.co.uk/images/sb45lg.jpg

This one doesn't

http://www.geocities.co.jp/MusicHall/1069/KWHP/1965-9/hair.jpg

It's good to see you lot took my request to keep this thread on topic seriously.

Apologies Haydon for going off topic, but if these two bloggs are both yours they look very good, the predaq game and the football team web. Look very interesting and for people into that sort of thing it is very attractive to the eye and would draw you in. A bit of colour adds sparkle.

The blue and white I use constantly is attractive and business like, but the site needs something colourful to market it a bit. With maybe a quirky or cheeky catch phrase.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Nope. Sorry Mo. No idea whatsoever. :huh:

Ooops Groucho, I'm sorry I was just being a little rude. There was such a lot of nudity up for discussion instead of the thread topic. :wink_kiss :naughty: :angel:
That and the heat has affected me greatly. A shame alcohol doesn't quench thirst.

So Groucho what would render SO not so much like last year?

Maureen
Northern angel

Perhaps SO is missing something. So let me ask you all, is there anything that you would like to see on SO? What other sites do you visit? Why do you visit them? What have they got that you don't get from your SO fix?

Please can we keep this thread on topic.

I don't know Haydon - one of the things I like (and I know others do too) is the repartee and wit on SO. There are some exceptionally clever and amusing people on here and that's what makes it for me - not the topics, but how they are addressed. If that entails going off topic at times, I don't see that as a problem (unless it is a particularly serious or sensitive thread) because that's how conversations go in real life.

We had a thread about this some months ago and I think there's been a drop-off since then; it seemed to knock some of the spontaneity on the head. Most message boads have an obsession with off/on topicness. maybe that's to their detriment.

I like SO because I work from home a lot and it provides me with intelligent (generally :laugh:) interaction with like-minded individuals. It was the sponteneity and wit that attracted me in the first place.

It would be interesting to hear why others post.

Sorry, H. We did go off a little there, but as Fee says that's what I enjoy about this board. All we need is a gentle nudge to keep us on track. :)

Imagine we were all at a meet, around a very big table in a pub somewhere. There would be a small group having a serious conversation over there, a few having a girly chat over there, a few taking the pee out of someone who just walked in over there, one or two flirting outrageously, a few just generally being silly and having a laugh. Once in a while, something one group is talking about catches someone in another group's attention, so they join in their conversation, maybe only for a while. They might even change seats. And so it goes on, all making for a very enjoyable and varied evening.

That's how I see SO.

Originally Posted by Haydon
Perhaps SO is missing something. So let me ask you all, is there anything that you would like to see on SO? What other sites do you visit? Why do you visit them? What have they got that you don't get from your SO fix?



I really like SO the way it is...I have my fave posters and friends off the board and I REALLY can't bear to share y'all with anyone who might find you not as lovely as I do. I've 'snuck' onto another current message board and I like SO much better!! The other place was...quite a bit trealclely and under dictatorship. SF's site while this one was down was quite fun...we got to cuss and fight and had no mods...Good job SF:applause:!! Like I said, I go for the Coffee Lounge, Soapbox, Games and Riddles, books and music, news...some of the TV shows I'm able to get over here, not a reality tv person. I like it just fine as is. I do worry about getting banned when I get drug into squables b/c want to be able to say what I mean, how I mean it...other than that I have no real complaints.:)

Great, thanks for the on topic posts! Some decent feedback! :)

I'm thinking that SO needs a major redesign and rehaul.

Anyone else want to put forward suggestions of improving SO?

I personally think this place is too thread-orientated, too linear. I'd prefer to see, for example, a games area where you could play featured games online (like the daily quiz), games with scoreboards for members. You could change the games every so often depending on how popular/not they were. Members could recommend games/puzzles that they'd come across and if they were approved by admin, they'd then be available to members to play.

Similarly with the sports section - you need more interaction. Have the latest sports headlines on a ticker tape for instance. Show the latest scores as they happen, league tables etc. Make it all much more visual and in your face. People are inherently lazy and won't trawl through pages of text, but if they see a visual or headline which grabs them, they'd be tempted to read on and or post comments on the subject.

Reality TV areas also need work. Have an ongoing poll where people can vote each week without someone having to make a poll thread, show the latest odds on the contestants from a link to a bookies site. Have a daily poll with the poll questions being suggested by members. Again, latest headlines to keep people up to do so they don't have to go to Digital Spy to find out the news then come back here to tell everyone else about. Whatever Digital Spy does, do it too.

Music - show the latest charts - link to radio stations - broadcast music

Soapbox - again, show the latest news headlines to encourage debate

Basically look at what's working well and is enjoyed, and whack some effort into it.

Look at what's slow and underused and if you can't fix it - bin it.

It'll take a bit of effort, but why not recruit existing members to be in charge of certain areas - not moderators, just give them responsibilty for keeping their area up to date and getting feedback. Have a button to contact the forum monitor (for want of a better word) for people to suggest/complain, rather than everything going to you, if you want to cut down your workload.

You have some loyal members who want to improve the site but don't want to or shouldn't be moderators. They may still have something to offer.

I don't personally think that a new skin or a different design will do a lot of good. I wouldn't chose to visit a site based on it's colouration, it's the content that keeps you interested.

A forum is like a garden. Leave it untended and it'll either go wild or die. Put some time and effort into it and it will flourish.

I visit one other forum but so much happens in the between the times I get to visit I rarely post as I can't catch up in the time I have...

This site is excellent...I can catch up and comment in the time I have to spend on hear...although sometimes even you lot can gob off too much and leave me strauggling behind like a spider with one leg! :laugh:

A few quick points:

1) Get the Happy Birthday/ Anniversary/ New Pet rubbish out of the coffee lounge and put it in it's own section so that if we dont want to, we never have to look at it.

2) Open a politics section.....tricky I know as most people here dont read a decent newspaper or watch anything other than John Cravens newsround.
But, I do believe you would get some lively debate.

3) Rev up the rep system. I know some people dont like it, but I think it's a great way of getting people to check back and give them a dig to fire something back.
Maybe let people buy totally anonymous rep, even for sponsors.

4) Put me in charge when Haydons not around.

5) Encourage people to bad rep for boring or self-centered posts.

6) Get the pictures section going again.....maybe a competition for best or oddest photo of the month, with the prize being something forum oriented rather than cash or a box of chocolates.

7) Not sure how it would work, but open an anonymous blog section.
Seems alot of people are interested in that at the moment.

8) Get Patsy to organise a masked ball.


I'll sleep on it and come back with a few more thoughts tomorrow.:sleepy:

You...in charge...when Haydon's not around???? I'm quaking in my jammies!!:huh:

Be afraid. Be very afraid! :devil:






Erm, Haydon, my extra powers dont seem to have come through yet. :unsure:

Would one of those be the power of rational thought, Grouch?

For dealing with you lot?

I doubt it! :huh:

There are some great suggestions here. Particularly the suggestions by Groucho and Longshot. :) I hope to add as many of them in as I can.

I'm currently looking at some software that will make updating the site quicker and easier. For those of you who know about cms apps then I'm looking at Joomla. However, I don't want two different log ins, so I'm looking into how to integrate vbulletin(the forums) with Joomla. Looks difficult so I might have to pay a programmer to do it properly.

I'm in the process of negotiating with an advertising company to place some small text ads on SO - just above the footer. They will probably replace the lower Amazon banner as nobody is clicking. It's not big bucks, but will help a little.

I've also been playing around with a new SO logo. I'll post a draft a bit later.

Erm, Haydon, my extra powers dont seem to have come through yet. :unsure:
Would one of those be the power of rational thought, Grouch?
He said extra powers Patsy, not super powers:wink2:

What do you think?

http://www.survivor-online.co.uk/images/so-logo2.gif

I like that. Where would it appear, H?

Everywhere. Letterheads, compliment slips, t-shirts, mugs, on the sides of buildings. It would become the new logo for the site.

Sorry, I've just realised it's at the top left hand corner of the page. Funny how something becomes subliminal after a while. That said, would it really make much difference?

It could be Survivors Online for those who've weathered the storms of other boards.

I thought that's what it was when I joined :laugh:

No I'm not expecting it to make any difference. :) I just think it needs updating, as does the whole site.

Yeah Survivor Online can actually have all sorts of connotations.

I was just thinking that if it wasn't really necessary, you didn't need to waste your time, that's all. :)

Longshot's and some, I repeat some, of Groucho's suggestions are very good and your time might be better spent expanding on them.

I'm not very creative, but am always ready and willing to pass comment. Betcha didn't know that about me, didja? :wink2:

Everywhere. Letterheads, compliment slips, t-shirts, mugs, on the sides of buildings. It would become the new logo for the site.

Ooo I wnat a travel mug! :applause:

I still have my Survivor-online tee shirt and wear it with pride all over the show...I have ben asked on a couple of occasions what it means and have shared about your site...I then get a funny look and they walk away...I think I need more sales training :huh:

I personally think this place is too thread-orientated, too linear. I'd prefer to see, for example, a games area where you could play featured games online (like the daily quiz), games with scoreboards for members. You could change the games every so often depending on how popular/not they were. Members could recommend games/puzzles that they'd come across and if they were approved by admin, they'd then be available to members to play.
Hello longshot,

The linear look and thread orientation I found to be an attractive feature of SO. Extremely useful for debate or conversation. I have no objection to a games area with scoreboards for members that could be a good idea.

Similarly with the sports section - you need more interaction. Have the latest sports headlines on a ticker tape for instance. Show the latest scores as they happen, league tables etc. Make it all much more visual and in your face. People are inherently lazy and won't trawl through pages of text, but if they see a visual or headline which grabs them, they'd be tempted to read on and or post comments on the subject.

I'm curious how this could be achieved results as they happen.

Reality TV areas also need work. Have an ongoing poll where people can vote each week without someone having to make a poll thread, show the latest odds on the contestants from a link to a bookies site. Have a daily poll with the poll questions being suggested by members. Again, latest headlines to keep people up to do so they don't have to go to Digital Spy to find out the news then come back here to tell everyone else about. Whatever Digital Spy does, do it too.

I took a look at digital spy some time ago and it looked to complicated and I didn't find it attractive. Also do these websites with links to betting contain computer viruses, and less safety features for users?

Music - show the latest charts - link to radio stations - broadcast music

This would need a license.

Soapbox - again, show the latest news headlines to encourage debate

When a member starts a thread in Soapbox a relevant news link article is sometimes listed to delienate what the thread is about, are you saying a number of articles should be highlighted via a link to a news editorial? If so this magazine page idea is a good one, and could equally well be copied for a political section.

Basically look at what's working well and is enjoyed, and whack some effort into it.
Look at what's slow and underused and if you can't fix it - bin it.

It'll take a bit of effort, but why not recruit existing members to be in charge of certain areas - not moderators, just give them responsibilty for keeping their area up to date and getting feedback. Have a button to contact the forum monitor (for want of a better word) for people to suggest/complain, rather than everything going to you, if you want to cut down your workload.

You know longshot, this I do think in principle is a good idea, but it is also an acknowledgement that there are at present on the site people with speciality subjects and experience, and could well be a kick to any ideas of equality amongst members.And provide an open gateway to advertising personal services. I am also worried that if certain individuals become high profile this could be off puting for new members posting, fearing the old war horse.

You have some loyal members who want to improve the site but don't want to or shouldn't be moderators. They may still have something to offer.

I don't personally think that a new skin or a different design will do a lot of good. I wouldn't chose to visit a site based on it's colouration, it's the content that keeps you interested.


A forum is like a garden. Leave it untended and it'll either go wild or die. Put some time and effort into it and it will flourish.

True it is content that is important, but it needs presenting in an enticing fashion, that is easily accessible for users of all ages.

Maureen
Northern angel.

A few quick points:

1) Get the Happy Birthday/ Anniversary/ New Pet rubbish out of the coffee lounge and put it in it's own section so that if we dont want to, we never have to look at it.

Maybe if this is taken out of coffee lounge a diary week page should exist so that personal wishes and greetings could be sent.
2) Open a politics section.....tricky I know as most people here dont read a decent newspaper or watch anything other than John Cravens newsround.
But, I do believe you would get some lively debate.

I suppose this could be tried out for a temporary period, politics is not everyones cup of tea.

3) Rev up the rep system. I know some people dont like it, but I think it's a great way of getting people to check back and give them a dig to fire something back.
Maybe let people buy totally anonymous rep, even for sponsors.

I have my reservations about this one, because I see it as serving no purpose, except for the creation of ill feeling amongst members, some members who have never met one another and could never truly understand the members they rep. Critical comment should always be constructive and offer an alternative explanation.

4) Put me in charge when Haydons not around.

5) Encourage people to bad rep for boring or self-centered posts.
Critical comment should always be constructive and offer an alternative explanation. If you bad repped every single self -centred post on SO, all those help threads would disappear, all those holiday threads, or illness threads etc would go, in addition there would be no areas for specialisms based upon peoples experience. SO would exist with two or three threads in each section and that would be it.

6) Get the pictures section going again.....maybe a competition for best or oddest photo of the month, with the prize being something forum oriented rather than cash or a box of chocolates.

I think this is a good idea and some threads have started with this intention in mind.

7) Not sure how it would work, but open an anonymous blog section.
Seems alot of people are interested in that at the moment.

8) Get Patsy to organise a masked ball.

I presume blogging is advertising with links to other websites.
I'll sleep on it and come back with a few more thoughts tomorrow.:sleepy:

I'm going to sleep on it now. I only have two days home and I couldn't resist SO.

I hope if Haydon does manage to make some changes, it will not mean sO going down for any length of time.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Northern Angel, with all due respect, it's not about what you want, it's about attracting new people to the board. The format you like is the one that's failing, so you have to acknowledge that something needs to change. Do you realise you said 'I' six times in your reply and only mentioned other people once?

Yes, results can be updated live, or I wouldn't have suggested it. Digital Spy isn't complicated at all. A link to a betting site won't contain viruses, a link is a link, and Haydon would be the person who wrote the links so that's hardly likely to happen. I think your worries about high profile members are unfounded. If someone started to think they were more important than anyone else, I'm sure the other members would point it out to them.

All in all your replies to my and Groucho's posts do seem quite negative. Is a new colour skin your only suggestion?

Hello longshot,

Apologies for having written in the first person. We are all guilty of this. Maybe we should all become actvely engaged in promoting the site, via a mention on any of our own sites. Maybe the new logo with web address is transferable to email, so that friends will become inadvertently aware of survivors existence.

Merchandising could become a useful marketing tool, but we would all have to agree to buying it and not abstain.

Some SO members are worried about viruses and rogue programmes as they should be, for they have children. Some Websites are just too adult orientated. I'd love to believe you were right about the unfounded worries about high profile members, or as some would call it cliques. This does not mean that long term members shouldn't have responsibilities in accordance to there experiences or online abilities.

My suggestion about the skin was just to increase the range of choice, the content so far of all of SO's linear threads is attractive and interesting to read according to individual taste. We have to be careful that too much choice does not spoil the meal, but rather that everything should be accessible by a click.

Some members still prefer SO the way it is, so too much change would be a bad thing. The problem is finding the balance between that of a professional forum which is focus orientated and a community based forum. I have also observed no one has volunteered to do a monthly or quarterly news letter. So maybe this should go to a rota system between all the paid up sponsors and donators and at the end of the year an award to the best one. As voted by ordinary members and guests.

Maureen
Northern angel.

I have also observed no one has volunteered to do a monthly or quarterly news letter. So maybe this should go to a rota system between all the paid up sponsors and donators and at the end of the year an award to the best one. As voted by ordinary members and guests.


Can I just say Mo, I think you fundamantally misunderstand the Sponsor/Donator system.

Sponsors and donators aren't "special" members.

They are just members who can be arsed to pay Haydon £5 occasionally, usually to see who has given them some rep, or some other additional feature.

It's got sweet F.A. to do with anything else, least of all the content of their posts.

I'd love to believe you were right about the unfounded worries about high profile members, or as some would call it cliques.

So maybe this should go to a rota system between all the paid up sponsors and donators and at the end of the year an award to the best one. As voted by ordinary members and guests.

Don't you think that your second idea contradicts your first? You're actively promoting a two tier system of members yet worrying about the effects of the exact same thing.

I think it's an awful idea that's certain to cause nothing but bad feeling.

I have also observed no one has volunteered to do a monthly or quarterly news letter. So maybe this should go to a rota system between all the paid up sponsors and donators Maureen
Northern angel.

What a fantastic idea!

Unfortunately I won't be able to take part as I'm neither of those.

Let's have a look ... hey, Groucho's a Sponsor.

I think you must do the first news letter Groucho, I think you'd be very good at it, I'm sure Maureen would agree.

Could we have it by 31 July please? I can't wait!

I am sorry.

I trust whatever Haydon changes will be acceptable to us all.

Maureen
Northern angel.

Hey, Haydon, I just had an idea. :idea: <--- see?

How about selling off (for cash) sub forums for members to do their own stuff in???

You could make them a small link, down the bottom there and have them password protected, by invitation only, so that no one could stumble in by accident and have something to complain about.

That way, you could raise a bit of revenue for the old place and allow a bit free reign for members to tangent off in different directions if the mood took them, with minimum disruption to the main board.

The only thing you'd have to worry about is how much to charge for a years rent! :book:

Why am I automatically thinking that your area would be a porn share section?

Because you're judging me by your own standards....:glare:

You don't want the Imogen tape after all then?

You don't want the Imogen tape after all then?

Sorry, I dont have tape player any more. :mellow:

Do you have it on any 21st century formats?

Sorry, I dont have tape player any more. :mellow:

Do you have it on any 21st century formats?

We have both. Mr P wouldn't be able to watch his "special" films otherwise.

Have you had all yours copied onto disc then, Grouch?

Sorry, it comes from talking to my mum and you older people. I always translate everything back into 1980s english so she understands.

Can I just say Mo, I think you fundamantally misunderstand the Sponsor/Donator system.

Sponsors and donators aren't "special" members.

They are just members who can be arsed to pay Haydon £5 occasionally, usually to see who has given them some rep, or some other additional feature.

It's got sweet F.A. to do with anything else, least of all the content of their posts.


Grouch, I TRIED to give you good rep for this but must spread myself around...anyhoo, I believe I've said this to our Mo on COUNTLESS occaisions and am glad that you said it to her as she values your comments in the utmost of awe. Thank you sir, thank you. xo msgirl:thumbsup:

Warning.........

Stand clear of a Grouch ego explosion!!

I know Slipper, I know.:shutup:

Hey, Haydon, I just had an idea. :idea: <--- see?

How about selling off (for cash) sub forums for members to do their own stuff in???

You could make them a small link, down the bottom there and have them password protected, by invitation only, so that no one could stumble in by accident and have something to complain about.

That way, you could raise a bit of revenue for the old place and allow a bit free reign for members to tangent off in different directions if the mood took them, with minimum disruption to the main board.

The only thing you'd have to worry about is how much to charge for a years rent! :book:
An interesting idea.

So.. who would be interested in their own passworded forum section for £30?

LOL!

Personally I don't think it's such a great idea. I think that you would get different groups going to different forums and spending time there and not on the main board.

Just a thought.

tigger, it's not a whole lot different than being a sponsor or donator...they have perks that others don't, which doesn't faze me b/c I just can't come off the $$ right now, but if someone is willing to pay and Haydon is willing to set it up and offer, why not let someone chose FOR THEMSELVES if they want to do that?? Groups are gonna group no matter how hard people try to have this be a 'Utopian Society Message Board'. The sooner people just get over that there are going to be ins, out, friends, humor, random off-topicness, and all the other things we have here, we can move on and go back to trying to have the message board I signed up for.

When I get the money, I plan on signing up to sponsor/donate and if this new section goes through and I have the money for that, I'll probably join it as well. See, it's my choice to make.:wink2:

An interesting idea.

So.. who would be interested in their own passworded forum section for £30?

Groucho would. I speak on his behalf cos he's on holiday.

Would you like his credit card number?

tigger, it's not a whole lot different than being a sponsor or donator...they have perks that others don't, which doesn't faze me b/c I just can't come off the $$ right now, but if someone is willing to pay and Haydon is willing to set it up and offer, why not let someone chose FOR THEMSELVES if they want to do that?? Groups are gonna group no matter how hard people try to have this be a 'Utopian Society Message Board'. The sooner people just get over that there are going to be ins, out, friends, humor, random off-topicness, and all the other things we have here, we can move on and go back to trying to have the message board I signed up for.

When I get the money, I plan on signing up to sponsor/donate and if this new section goes through and I have the money for that, I'll probably join it as well. See, it's my choice to make.:wink2:


I was only expressing my opinion, or is that not allowed anymore?:bored:

I'd prefer to see, for example, a games area where you could play featured games online (like the daily quiz), games with scoreboards for members. You could change the games every so often depending on how popular/not they were. Members could recommend games/puzzles that they'd come across and if they were approved by admin, they'd then be available to members to play.

Tick. Done

Have an ongoing poll where people can vote each week without someone having to make a poll thread, ... Have a daily poll with the poll questions being suggested by members.

Tick. Done

Again, latest headlines to keep people up to do so they don't have to go to Digital Spy to find out the news

Tick. Done

Soapbox - again, show the latest news headlines to encourage debate

Tick. Done

This longshot bloke's a blummin genius :thumbsup:

Yeah - he came up with some good suggestions. I wouldn't say it's all quite "done" yet, it's getting there though.. I want to integrate latest news and people being able to comment on it a bit better.

You see, I do listen to and implement suggestions from the community. :)

I have got a blog but don't know how to use it. I typed a message in but don't know what to press to post it in my blog.

Thank you for my blog Haydon, can you please post a dummies guide on how to use it.

Once you're logged in - click on your name. That should take you straight to the new post option. If not, you should see a link at the top that says "Manage". Click Manage and then click "New Post".

The top box is for the introductory text to your post/entry. The bottom box is the "more text" part of your entry/post. So, if you like the top box is the teaser to encourage people to click and read more. When they click to read more they get presented with the text you put in the second box.
There are some options down the left hand side. Of note is the Status dropdown. If you want your entry to go live ensure the status is set to "published".
Want people to be able to leave comments about your entry? Tick the box "enable comments".
When you're happy for it to go live click the button at the very bottom right that says "blog this".

There are LOADS of options for your blog. You can create categories to help organise your ramblings as well.

One thing I would suggest is everyone has a look at their Blog Settings. When logged in... at the top, click "Control Centre" then go to blog settings. Put a description in. Give your blog a cool name - rather than just your name.
Choose the template you want to use for your blog (how the pages look).
Hope this helps get people started.

Thanks Haydon I seem to have cracked it now.

I was only expressing my opinion, or is that not allowed anymore?:bored:

I agree with Tigs on this one :D

Liking the rest of the changes though Haydon :applause:

Bl**dy space invaders :ranting:

I was only expressing my opinion, or is that not allowed anymore?:bored:

Yes dear, as I was only expressing mine as well. Didn't mean to get you all ruffled, honest! (*** holds 3 fingers up in the Girl Scout Salute***)


(floops...longshot doesn't need an inflated ego!!:bag:)

An interesting idea.

So.. who would be interested in their own passworded forum section for £30?

Blimey H, 30 quid..........where do I sign up?????????????? :w00t:

The sooner people just get over that there are going to be ins, out, friends, humor, random off-topicness, and all the other things we have here, we can move on and go back to trying to have the message board I signed up for.
A bit harsh my Mississippian friend!

As for the current changes - they are working well Haydon. Loving the games arcade!

i'm a bit lost on the blogging thing. If we blog, should we then not post about our day-to-days on the forum? When should one blog and when should one post?

To blog or not to blog, that is the question.
The answer - it's up to you.

A bit harsh my Mississippian friend!



Not trying to be harsh my Scotlandian friend, just posting...honest!:smartie:

Haydon, as well as considering the layout and content of the site, something you are putting a lot of effort into, I think we also need to think about how the users of the site post and interact. And what kind of new members you want to attract.

The site is now primarily a tv-focussed one, and many of the posts are about tv shows, with the bulk of activity happening when there is a major reality programme airing.

In between major shows, the other aspect of the site kicks in, which is a general discussion/debating forum, and it's here that I think it falls down.

The main problem is that the bulk of active members, while having no problems airing their views about tv shows, seem to have trouble engaging in meaningful discussions/debate.

THe debating problem as I see it is the difficulty of discussing a subject without becoming personally bound up with opinions, and believing that any robust challenge of one's opinions is a personal attack. Usually this produces a 'fight or flight' response. Quite often the person who has challenged is unfairly labelled a bully or troublemaker, with other people (usually mates) joining in the labelling.

I do believe that this inability to debate without getting upset is at the core of some of this site's problems, and if it is to be considered a discussion forum something has to be done about it. For a start, as I have seen elsewhere, people who start labelling other members as bullies for challenging their views should be suspended. Also, maybe some guidelines on how to handle a debate without making it personal - no doubt this is a skill that has to be learnt, and a discussion forum should be able to provide suggestions.

Absolutely agree with you SF. I think it's a personality thing with the members here. Broadly, the type of people who enjoy the coffee morning aspects of the site probably aren't going to be those who are prepared to roll their sleeves up in a serious debate.

It's like expecting the readers of Chat, Bella and True Stories to flip over to the Economist in the afternoons. Likewise, those who are interested in topical debate will more than likely be less than inspired by the coffee lounge.

There are inceasingly few members left here who are happy to straddle both areas of the forum, but we do need more 'serious' posters, or at least people who are prepared to put a little thought into their opinions and be prepared to back them up rather than whisper them behind a rich tea biscuit them run off simpering if anyone replies to them.

Maybe the answer is simply to attract a load of new people, rather than get fed up with the ones we've already got, and H is doing that with the new site developments. Whether or not those developments will attract people who can straddle the two areas of the forum remains to be seen.

Hello Survivorfan,

I agree with you in every aspect here, but feel I should add its OK for people to agree to differ on a point of view in a debate. It is not all right to badger someone until they agree with you of course.

Please accept my apologies here, as I had not meant to raise this again, it is not alright to totally disrespect someone and to insult or slag them off during a debate. For this reason I have personally withdrawn from some serious debating areas even though I have a view point on many.

I suppose you could say that you can only insult or deride someones personality for so long before the accused tires. Maybe the accused feels like leaving and threatens to.I am guilty of having started off the I am angry threads, in a vain way to highlight a problem and hopefully solve it, to no avail.

The other curious aspect I have observed from the board is that at times when an apology is really due, some folks are reluctant to accept that they have been deliberately hurtful and brush it off, as its the internet, its a global village, a rogue programme. Meaningless little excuses giving license to further insults.

I have some vague recollections also of reading some truly understanding posts where criticism has been levied that maybe we have behaved worse than children, and that our stubborness has got in the way of being adults. Even more curious than this I have had it thrown at me via cp that I am a troublemaker.

I am going to leave this off now, as I don't want to become a parrot and repeat myself to often, otherwise I will meet the criteria of one of my accusations and to have posted a boring old fart post.

The answer lies in self moderation and adhering to the rules of respecting others views. That is what we have signed up to do when joining.

MAUREEN
NORTHERN ANGEL.

The other curious aspect I have observed from the board is that at times when an apology is really due, some folks are reluctant to accept that they have been deliberately hurtful and brush it off, as its the internet, its a global village, a rogue programme.
Mo, who decides when an apology is due? If I am 'TOLD' to apologise to someone and I don't feel that I have reason to apologise I certainly wouldn't. I would never apologise unless in my own heart I felt or realised that I had gone too far in my defense of a matter. Just because the person I was debating with told me to say sorry is not a valid reason for apologising.

The thing is, even in what you might call a serious debate, you are going to get a certain amount of

-leg pulling
-sarcasm
-offensive remarks
-etc

in fact look at a Commons debate and you'll see all those things.

It's just human nature to do it at times. If you stifle those things you'll take some of the colour out of it don't you think?

The art is probably in being able to rise above it without getting upset, although there might be times when sarcasm is being used to try to get a message across and it might be worth listening to.

When I was talking about personalising things, I wasn't thinking so much about being nasty to someone, I was thinking about taking criticism of one's opinions personally.

Just thinking back, I used to work in IT, and we used to do reviews/walkthroughs of each other's work, where your work was put up for group inspection. What we had to learn at an early stage was to treat it as an ego-less process, in other words not to feel that any criticism of one's work was a criticism of one's self. WIthout learning that and applying it, there was always a tendency to go on the offensive or defensive when a criticism was made. Hard to do at first, particularly as there was a natural tendency to defend your own creation, and the same applies on here as well, where there's a general tendency to defend your own opinions at all costs until things get so bad you snap.

Mo, who decides when an apology is due? If I am 'TOLD' to apologise to someone and I don't feel that I have reason to apologise I certainly wouldn't. I would never apologise unless in my own heart I felt or realised that I had gone too far in my defense of a matter. Just because the person I was debating with told me to say sorry is not a valid reason for apologising.

Hello Buzz,

You follow your heart Buzz. The internet forums also give off an aura of who gets on with who and if you sense any animosity it usually boils down to either a) someone is being too forceful in expressing a view and badgering or b) someone is critically giving coment of a personal nature maybe an insult.

The first area I have noticed from other posters particularly clever ones that they would acknowledge that they have a view, or an opinion and you can take it or leave it. Which is great as this leaves the debate still open. But the later is a different ball game all together.

The reason why the later is a different ball game is because it detracts from the debate and creates uneccessary tensions. I am sure all of us have entered a room at times and felt that the atmosphere had become likened to cheese. You could cut it.

You have made a good and valid point though Buzz, and yes it is one I to would be reluctant to take up, until that state in time when I would recognise, hey Maureen you have either a)gone to far, b)you have no justifiable reason to make everyone else suffer, c) there was a lesson to learn and its time you apologised for your part in this, even though you may not get one in return.

Only then can you come away and hold your head high knowing you've done the right thing.

MAUREEN
NORTHERN ANGEL.

It's like expecting the readers of Chat, Bella and True Stories to flip over to the Economist in the afternoons. Likewise, those who are interested in topical debate will more than likely be less than inspired by the coffee lounge.

And I think more than that, there's a difference in perception about what the big topics of the day are.

I do find it a little frustrating the number of people here who are happy to say "I dont get involved in the heavy issues in case I make myself look stupid!"

I think it's only by debating these things that one arrives at a better understanding.

It's not like there's a "right" or "wrong" answer to most geo-political issues, just differences of opinion.

I also find it a little odd that in one of the oldest democratic societies in the world, that so few people seem to know or care about politics to any significant degree.

The thing is, even in what you might call a serious debate, you are going to get a certain amount of

-leg pulling
-sarcasm
-offensive remarks
-etc

in fact look at a Commons debate and you'll see all those things.

It's just human nature to do it at times. If you stifle those things you'll take some of the colour out of it don't you think?

The art is probably in being able to rise above it without getting upset, although there might be times when sarcasm is being used to try to get a message across and it might be worth listening to.

When I was talking about personalising things, I wasn't thinking so much about being nasty to someone, I was thinking about taking criticism of one's opinions personally.

Just thinking back, I used to work in IT, and we used to do reviews/walkthroughs of each other's work, where your work was put up for group inspection. What we had to learn at an early stage was to treat it as an ego-less process, in other words not to feel that any criticism of one's work was a criticism of one's self. WIthout learning that and applying it, there was always a tendency to go on the offensive or defensive when a criticism was made. Hard to do at first, particularly as there was a natural tendency to defend your own creation, and the same applies on here as well, where there's a general tendency to defend your own opinions at all costs until things get so bad you snap.

Hello Survivorfan,

Oh I love leg pulling, I don't mind it in the least. It is funny and can leave one in a state of hysterics. Tenna lady pads might one day come is useful for it, as to much of it and I might even need an oxygen kit. You know with being an asthmatic.

Sarcasm I still have reservations about, I think I expressed my view on this score in an old thread on humour. Sarcasm can lead to offensive remarks being personally directed towards you not your opinion.

On the subject of criticism of ones work, than yes human nature dictates that you would be on the defensive. The same goes for your experiences. However, it can also depend on how the criticism is given. If it is done to give you positive feed back to encourage improvement, than that can be enhancing. If it is negative than it is destructive and not inducive of progress.

Sometimes particularly in my circle I am particularly wary of 'ego' as I sometimes abstain from expressing a view of someones performance, if I recognise that the individual may not take anything positive from it. As the individual ego of the person is so highly tuned any progress would be minimal.
A bit like some of the x factor participants who have false hopes and impressions of themselves.

On an academic front we are not allowed to mark in red pen anymore as this angers students and has been proven to have a negative backlash.

MAUREEN
NORTHERN ANGEL.

number of people here who are happy to say "I dont get involved in the heavy issues in case I make myself look stupid!"

No, I always say "i dont get involved in the heavy issues because I AM stupid"

And I think more than that, there's a difference in perception about what the big topics of the day are.

I do find it a little frustrating the number of people here who are happy to say "I dont get involved in the heavy issues in case I make myself look stupid!"

I think it's only by debating these things that one arrives at a better understanding.

It's not like there's a "right" or "wrong" answer to most geo-political issues, just differences of opinion.

I also find it a little odd that in one of the oldest democratic societies in the world, that so few people seem to know or care about politics to any significant degree.

Re the big topics of the day, that's got to be down to your own interests and persepective. Even the media needs editors to decide that, so it's always going to be down to the individual to post about whichever story grabs them, and hope that others are interested too.

I don't see how people can pigeon-hole 'politics' into a subject that they can 'do' or not 'do'. Everyone who drives a car, lives in a house, has rubbish collected or sends their children to school is already taking part. Maybe there's a way it could be made less esoteric?

The thing is, even in what you might call a serious debate, you are going to get a certain amount of

-leg pulling
-sarcasm
-offensive remarks
-etc

in fact look at a Commons debate and you'll see all those things.

It's just human nature to do it at times. If you stifle those things you'll take some of the colour out of it don't you think?


I agree with SF, and don't think it's a bad thing, just human nature. If I express a view here and people disagree I like to think it wouldn't bother me -after all people have different opinions (and it's not my fault if they're wrong :devil:).

Also there's the brutal truth that I don't know the majority of posters here well enough to really care if they disagree with me, let alone if they're sarcastic (I've always thought that was an underated form of with anyway) or slightly offensive to me. There are a lot of posters here who's posts I have a lot of time for as they are usually well reasoned and interesting but it still wouldn't bother me much if they slated one of my posts and I wouldn't expect anyone else to be too bothered if I disagreed with them - even in a sarcastic way :D.

There are a lot of posters here who's posts I have a lot of time for as they are usually well reasoned and interesting but it still wouldn't bother me much if they slated one of my posts and I wouldn't expect anyone else to be too bothered if I disagreed with them - even in a sarcastic way

As if I care...

I do find it a little frustrating the number of people here who are happy to say "I dont get involved in the heavy issues in case I make myself look stupid!"

Seems like SFan supplied the reason for that:

The thing is, even in what you might call a serious debate, you are going to get a certain amount of

-leg pulling
-sarcasm
-offensive remarks
-etc

Judging from the responses to some of Bridge's comments it seems that not only will opinions be cross-examined, but also people's actions and motives too. I'm not surprised that many people wish to stay out of the firing line.

Haydon, as well as considering the layout and content of the site, something you are putting a lot of effort into, I think we also need to think about how the users of the site post and interact. And what kind of new members you want to attract.

The site is now primarily a tv-focussed one, and many of the posts are about tv shows, with the bulk of activity happening when there is a major reality programme airing.

In between major shows, the other aspect of the site kicks in, which is a general discussion/debating forum, and it's here that I think it falls down.

That's the issue in a nutshell isn't it. This site is primarily a reality tv discussion site. If it were to be changed to being primarily a topical affairs discussion site then that would change the character of the site. Some of the existing members might quit. I think that's a big risk for Haydon to run.

Also, in my experience topical discussion boards allowing robust discussion can be demanding of moderator/admin time. Debates get heated, flame wars persist, trolls flourish and people push the boundaries of taste (eg language, images, etc). Again, it's a risk for Haydon.

Also, in my experience topical discussion boards allowing robust discussion can be demanding of moderator/admin time. Debates get heated, flame wars persist, trolls flourish and people push the boundaries of taste (eg language, images, etc). Again, it's a risk for Haydon.

Do you think we should just settle for mediocrity then mik?:(

Yup. I'm a big believer in mediocrity :)

Seriously though, sometimes there's great discussions here. To expect them all the time is unrealistic, unless the character of the Board is to change markedly.

Personally I don't visit SO looking for topical debate. If there's an interesting topic going I'll join in. If not, and if I want to join in some vigorous (mass)debating, then I'll look elsewhere.

ooh, ooh, spam alert :w00t:

As if I care...
Aww Slipper, I would never disagree with you, you who taught me the phrase pinstripe attitude... also I like your avatar - good enough reasons I reckon.

it seems that not only will opinions be cross-examined, but also people's actions and motives too.

But surely this is a good thing?

EG. at one end of the scale FionaMummy, WickedWelshWitch etc.

Elsewhere, anyone who says something where you find yourself having to read between the lines.

Or, in the case you mentioned, where someone touches on an emotive subject.

Happens in real life, happens on here too.

Absolutely agree with you SF. I think it's a personality thing with the members here. Broadly, the type of people who enjoy the coffee morning aspects of the site probably aren't going to be those who are prepared to roll their sleeves up in a serious debate.

totally agree. Except I don't see why it's a problem.

It's like expecting the readers of Chat, Bella and True Stories to flip over to the Economist in the afternoons.

excuse me? Rather an elitist remark..:huh:


Likewise, those who are interested in topical debate will more than likely be less than inspired by the coffee lounge.

So? You make it sound like they are above pleasantries and idle social interaction. Their loss.




Maybe the answer is simply to attract a load of new people, rather than get fed up with the ones we've already got

Ya mean it? Could you really stop being fed up with us? How very thank you.






Whether or not those developments will attract people who can straddle the two areas of the forum remains to be seen.

I agree. But the first self confessed economist reader who talks about his pet rabbit gets it................

totally agree. Except I don't see why it's a problem.

Because some of us would like to see more debate. If you wouldn't, then it isn't.

excuse me? Rather an elitist remark..:huh:

Did I claim to be one of either group? I wasn't passing judgement on either , so I don't really see how that can be elitist.


So? You make it sound like they are above pleasantries and idle social interaction. Their loss.

Check out a serious debating forum and try posting about the colour of your toilet paper and see how far you get. People tend to join forums that represent their interests, the unusual thing about this one is that it tried to provide both - most are specific to a particular area, and what I think is happening here is that we're a bit of a jack of all trades, attracting no-one sort of person in particular.


Ya mean it? Could you really stop being fed up with us? How very thank you.


Yada yada :glare:

Yada yada :glare:


I have much to learn from you about debating I see......:smartie:

And I you about the one-line reply. How lovely.

Yes, short pithy retorts can be very effective if used correctly.

Got a link to one so I can see?

Floopy: Evens

TE: 11/10

Got a link to one so I can see?


Do you really need links in order to get an understanding of conversational basics?

I think it's debating courtesy to provide examples, where possible, if requested.

Maybe we're not that advanced at it yet though.

So, can I just get this straight? Is this now a "debating how to debate" debate?

Enter Groucho with word "mass" inserted strategically.

Back O/T.

As most of my posting is done at work, I find I really don't have time to enter into a debate. Actually, strike that. I don't have time to really think about and compose my response to most debates on here. I only post at length to something I don't feel I really have to think about. Off the cuff, from the heart and not the head in most cases! About things I feel I know enough about to not appear stupid.

I do believe that is the reason why many people don't join respond to Soapbox topics. There are several folk on here who obviously enjoy to debating side of the forum and express themselves very eloquently and usually with a lot of knowledge to back them up. So maybe other less self confident/less knowledgeable folk might feel a little intimidated by that. On the one hand, that should not stop people entering into a lively debate, because everyone has an opinion on everything even if they are unsure about voicing it. However, on the other hand, the "mass debators" should not complain about the number of people who are willing to debate with them.

inserted strategically

You been dreaming about me again Pats? :wink2:

That's debatable.

***msgirl makes a hasty exit from this exchange***

So, can I just get this straight? Is this now a "debating how to debate" debate?


http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-572077907195969915&q=monty+python%2C+argument

Look and learn ladies

:applause: Slip, you and I really need to meet.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-572077907195969915&q=monty+python%2C+argument

Look and learn ladies
Thanks Slipper - I think I shall be adopting a contradictory appraoch in future :D

Pats - Ohhh No you do don't


Samm - Ohhh No you won't

Is that you on the left or the right in the video Slips? :glare:

Pats - Ohhh No you do don't


Samm - Ohhh No you won't
Oh yes I will, I shall also be adopting a pinstripe attitude just for fun, and it's all your fault for teaching me all this stuff :D

So, can I just get this straight? Is this now a "debating how to debate" debate?

Enter Groucho with word "mass" inserted strategically.

Back O/T.

As most of my posting is done at work, I find I really don't have time to enter into a debate. Actually, strike that. I don't have time to really think about and compose my response to most debates on here. I only post at length to something I don't feel I really have to think about. Off the cuff, from the heart and not the head in most cases! About things I feel I know enough about to not appear stupid.

I do believe that is the reason why many people don't join respond to Soapbox topics. There are several folk on here who obviously enjoy to debating side of the forum and express themselves very eloquently and usually with a lot of knowledge to back them up. So maybe other less self confident/less knowledgeable folk might feel a little intimidated by that. On the one hand, that should not stop people entering into a lively debate, because everyone has an opinion on everything even if they are unsure about voicing it. However, on the other hand, the "mass debators" should not complain about the number of people who are willing to debate with them.

My gripe isn't so much the number of people willing, nor am I desperate for a 'debate' all the time, I think what disappoints me is all the platitudes people post instead of original thoughts. SO, what you get is some off-the-shelf opinion that has been picked up from somewhere or other, posted in a 'that's-my-opinion-take-it-or-leave-it-end-of' kind of way. No experimenting with ideas, playing around with them, nothing like that. You know, I have found on the rare occasions it happens, you'll get somene with idea A, and someone else with idea B, and as they talk about them, gradually something new emerges, idea C, and it's something neither had thought of before and wouldn't have unless thay'd talked about it.

I'm not convinced SF, I think it's very rare that people actually change their minds or compromise, because most people believe what they believe because they're sure it's right IYSWIM? I didn't develop my own set of views because I thought they might be wrong...

I can't remember the last time I actually changed my view on anything, maybe it's just me and I'm inflexible, ior maybe I'm just right :ninja: , or perhaps I don't debate enough... in fact I know I don't debate enough because sometimes having your views challenged can be upsetting. For example with fox hunting, my ex once tried to debate with me on that, I got very upset threw all my toys out of the pram and donated the money I was going to buy him a birthday present with to an animal charity.

Somethings for me are just too hard to debate because I can't argue rationally so I get miffed and stoppy instead.

Anyway, sorry bit of a tangent there, but it coud be another reaon why there's not as much debate as some would like...

'that's-my-opinion-take-it-or-leave-it-end-of' kind of way.

Yes, floopy can be rather intransigent, can't she?

Maybe it's just that there are people who don't want to debate, philosphise, call it what you will. Maybe they just want to be heard and aren't interested in anyone else's point of view.

I'm not convinced SF, I think it's very rare that people actually change their minds or compromise, because most people believe what they believe because they're sure it's right IYSWIM? I didn't develop my own set of views because I thought they might be wrong.....

I hink there's a problem with that (if you don't mind me saying) which is starting off with the premise that there is a 'right' or 'wrong' answer to everything, and that I think is a mistake.

Sure, some things have right or wrong answers (such as 2+2=4) but usually they only happen in closed, self-referring systems (like mathematics).

For everything else, I think the idea of 'right' and 'wrong' falls down, and usually it comes down to 'it all depends on ...'

Getting out of the 'right' or 'wrong' mindset can be very liberating.

Don't mind you saying anything at all and actually you have a point but I live on my own, work on my own and generally talk to, well me, and I agree with everything I say, so I'm ready to admit I may be a tiny bit self-righteous sometimes...

... damn it SF you're like the Spanish Inquisition and you have me confessing again! Time I went and did some work I think!

Well, just continuing on a bit, there's somethinng that sometimes happens in discussions, which comes from the 'right' or 'wrong' belief. Sometimes someone has a thought, or opinion, which is no more than that, a personal thought or opinion. But, fuelled by the need to be 'right', the opinion is prsented not as what it is, a personal thought, but as a piece of concrete fact. That is where any attempt at discussion, debate, whatever you want to call it, is doomed. I think this happens quite a lot.

I can't remember the last time I actually changed my view on anything.

I dont know if i have ever had my mind changed, but i have seen different angles to scenarios that i wouldnt normally have thought about. This has made me sway, and sometimes question my own beliefs.

I dont particularly like debate, because i have trouble holding my own. Some people on here are far stronger in their opinion than i am, and because of that i tend to get squashed like a fly. Its far easier to keep quiet and just read others view and ponder alone, rather than in public.

That's a shame really because you're always going to be stuck in your own private bubble, as far as giving and taking in a discussion is concerned.

Two of the women I know around here (my home town) are C- and N-. They are different in their natures. C is very opinionated and she will defend her opinions to the hilt. N is not at all opinionated although she will usually give a well considered viewpoint, but thinks her views don't count for a lot. Of the two, I listen to N much more, and value what she has to say. On the other hand, I tend to ignore most of what C says because it is opinion for the sake of it.

C's opinions tend to be based on things she has read - the so-called 'expert opinion' of someone else which she then takes as her own.

Can I give you an example and I would very much like to know Bonsai, how you would reply to it.

"Baby boys are more clingy to their mothers than girls are, because men die at an earlier age than women"

(that one she didn't make up herself, she read it in a medical magazine, and maintains it is correct).

So - how would you respond to it?

C's opinions tend to be based on things she has read - the so-called 'expert opinion' of someone else which she then takes as her own.
I don't think you should regard everything you read as koshe. But reading for some people particularly if they lack experience can only enable someone to reach a viewpoint albeit a limited one.

"Baby boys are more clingy to their mothers than girls are, because men die at an earlier age than women"

(that one she didn't make up herself, she read it in a medical magazine, and maintains it is correct).

So - how would you respond to it?

I have heard it said that baby boys are more clingy than girls, but I don't know the reason. I would find it difficult to accept that the reason being is the one quoted on adult mortality. I'd be tempted to throw it out on the basis that the young child would have no experience or concept of loss and bereavement.

Sorry I hope I haven't hurt anyones feelings.

MAUREEN
NORTHERN ANGEL.

What's Bonsai's view?

[COLOR="DarkRed"]. I'd be tempted to throw it out on the basis that the young child would have no experience or concept of loss and bereavement.
.

But does a baby have to have the concept of something in order to behave a certain way? For instance a baby instinctively feeds, without food it would die, so you can reasonably assume that a baby feeds because if it doesn't it will die. But does the baby know that?

I'm always changing my mind about things! If someone is putting up a good (well natured argument) I'm all for seeing things in a different light. I don;t like being hounded into someone else's viewpoint but Im always willing to accept that two people can have a different opinion on something and that if one argues the case well or puts up an interesting discussion then I'm also willing to accept that I may change my mind.

you may call me flim flam or contradictory or think I'm weak cos I don't stick to my original opinion on somethings - I prefer to call it being open minded!

But does a baby have to have the concept of something in order to behave a certain way? For instance a baby instinctively feeds, without food it would die, so you can reasonably assume that a baby feeds because if it doesn't it will die. But does the baby know that?


No survivorfan. A baby will act according to its instinctive needs, it does not know that if the need to be fed is not met it will die of starvation. All the baby recognises is being hungry. Or wet or needing a nappy change. The baby will cry loudly or moan untill it is fed, or changed.

It is we as adults that recognise the concept that if a baby does not feed or get fed it will die, of starvation, malnutrition etc. As adults our brains have developed to such an extent that it is we, who will give argument to the connotation of a concept.

MAUREEN
NORTHERN ANGEL.

Well, there you go then, we haven't yet found a hole in C's proposition.

By the way, I slapped that in this thread because Bonsai was sayig how she didn't like discussing things in case yer views get knocked down, and I thought, well, the best way to get better at something is to practise, and maybe she'd want to have a go with C's statement. Or not!

All the baby recognises is being hungry. Or wet or needing a nappy change. The baby will cry loudly or moan untill it is fed, or changed.


Thanks for that fascinating insight into parenthood Mo. :sly:

Can I give you an example and I would very much like to know Bonsai, how you would reply to it.

"Baby boys are more clingy to their mothers than girls are, because men die at an earlier age than women"

So - how would you respond to it?

This is going to sound flimsy, but i would respond by saying .... i have absolutely no idea.

I dont have children, so i dont read reports on babies. I know a lot of people with kids, and i dont think anyone has ever mentioned the fact that boys are clingier than girls ... but its not really a subject they would talk to me about, because im not a baby kinda gal.

Sorry.

OK, now forget about knowing anything about babies, just think about whether what she says makes sense or not.

You can have a warm up with this one if you like.

I say to you, UFOs are craft carrying aliens, and lots of people have seen UFOs, even top US military who aren't making it up, so aliens must exist.

Is there anything wrong with that?

Have i travelled back in time and am back at school :unsure:

Sorry if it sounds that way, I was trying to help.

the point I was trying to make is that you don't have to be an expert to tell if someone's spouting tosh.

I think it's not so much about having a strong opinion on something, it's about self confidence and being in the spotlight.

I'm perfectly happy to share my opinions with everyone, whether they're staunch beliefs or vague notions. I'm also perfectly happy to be in a spotlight, and I thinkg that the two go hand in hand. People who are natural performers or extroverts will feel more comfortable expressing their views than people who are less so.

That's why you'll find that leading politicians may not be the brightest, most knowledgeable people in the party, but they'll be the most charismatic, and the best performer.

I see what you're trying to do SF, but I'm not sure putting Bonnie in the spotlight is something she's comfortable with.

Yes, I guess so, that was probably a mistake.

Whichever, I got a third gold box out of it :w00t:

Well done! At least I didn't get a red one this time.

so aliens must exist.



Of course they do!

It's a nailed on certainty!:cool:

Nah, It's the mice you see.

Mice are three-dimensional representations of hyper-intelligent pan-dimensional beings that only had representatives on Earth to monitor its progress; the mice in question have reawoken the Magratheans from Cryosis for one more job. The planet to build is Earth Mark II, to replace the now demolished Earth Mark I, which the Magratheans built not as a planet but an organic supercomputer to calculate the Question, not the Answer, to Life, the Universe and Everything. The Answer is already known to the mice. As Deep Thought told them, the Answer is 42, but this only makes sense if the Question is known. Earth was, in fact, demolished five minutes before the Question was calculated.

So, we are the super-computer which followed Deep Thought (the second greatest super computer in the Universe of Space and Time - The Earth being the first greatest).

Simple really

Did you know a mouse can fit through a hole the size of the barrel of a Bic pen? :huh:

Have you been putting mice in the blender again Groucho :x

Did you know a mouse can fit through a hole the size of the barrel of a Bic pen? :huh:

are you gently leading into an explanation of where Patsy's hamster went Richard ... err I mean Groucho.

Did you know a mouse can fit through a hole the size of the barrel of a Bic pen? :huh:
I don't believe you! Prove it. A incy baby mouse maybe, but not a live, unblended adult mouse.

Haydon, I think 'mouse' is Groucho's little euphemism.

Blimey! I hope he didn't find this out at work. :shocking:

Did you know a mouse can fit through a hole the size of the barrel of a Bic pen? :huh:

Are you the pest controller who came round to my friend's house last week? This is exactly what she got told last week when she found she had mice in her house! You don't work in the City at all do you? You are the mice-catcher!:w00t:

I am a bit like Dol, I can easily be swayed but if I truly believe in something I will stand my ground, but I will listen to other viewpoints and take on board their comments and as I have said in some situations I have changed my mind and see things from someone's else's point of view.

Re the baby thing, my suggestion would be to do disregard anything that is written in these magazines, next month it'll be girls that are clingy!